Armenian News Network - Groong: Week In Review Podcast
Armenian News Network - Groong: Week In Review Podcast
Pietro Shakarian - Victory Day and Artsrun Hovhannisyan’s Historical Revision | Ep 436, May 16, 2025
Conversations on Groong - May 15, 2025
Topics
- May 9, Victory Day and Parade
- Pashinyan, Aliyev Posture at Victory Day
- Artsrun Hovhannisyan’s Historical Revision
- Armenia and Artsakh Contributions to WW2
Guest: Pietro Shakarian
Host:
Episode 436 | Recorded: May 12, 2025
Show Notes: https://podcasts.groong.org/436
VIDEO: https://youtu.be/iEieWDdov-A
Subscribe and follow us everywhere you are: linktr.ee/groong
Hovik Manucharyan (00:00:05):
Hello everyone and welcome to this Conversations on Groong episode.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:00:09):
So last Friday was May 9.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:00:12):
was Victory Day and once a solemn tribute to Soviet Union's sacrifice in World War II
Hovik Manucharyan (00:00:19):
this holiday is now being twisted and reframed given the current geopolitical
Hovik Manucharyan (00:00:24):
climate in many countries even celebrations can be banned or are definitely frowned
Hovik Manucharyan (00:00:29):
upon.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:00:30):
In Moscow it's a stage for China and the Global South.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:00:34):
In Washington
Hovik Manucharyan (00:00:36):
Trump is spinning it as an all-American triumph.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:00:39):
And in Armenia,
Hovik Manucharyan (00:00:41):
State TV is now questioning the country's wartime legacy,
Hovik Manucharyan (00:00:44):
downplaying its sacrifices and rewriting its own history.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:00:48):
Why?
Hovik Manucharyan (00:00:49):
What is behind this sudden revisionism?
Hovik Manucharyan (00:00:51):
And who benefits from erasing the truth?
Hovik Manucharyan (00:00:54):
That's what we'll be digging into today with Pietro Shakarian,
Hovik Manucharyan (00:00:57):
who is a historian of Russia and the Soviet Union,
Hovik Manucharyan (00:01:00):
and is currently based in St.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:01:01):
Petersburg, Russia.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:01:02):
So stay tuned.
Asbed Bedrossian (00:01:05):
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Asbed Bedrossian (00:01:57):
Thank you.
Asbed Bedrossian (00:01:58):
And on to the show.
Asbed Bedrossian (00:02:00):
Pietro, welcome to the show.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:02:02):
It's a great pleasure to be on your show, as always.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:02:19):
And I look forward to talking about many, many important topics on our program today.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:02:25):
It's great to have you on board.
Asbed Bedrossian (00:02:26):
It's always fun to talk with you.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:02:28):
Always fun.
Asbed Bedrossian (00:02:29):
So, Pietro, Victory Day in Moscow this year wasn't just a military parade.
Asbed Bedrossian (00:02:33):
It was primetime television and geopolitical action.
Asbed Bedrossian (00:02:36):
With Xi Jinping as a guest of honor, China's expanding influence took center stage.
Asbed Bedrossian (00:02:42):
Despite pressures from the EU, some European leaders attended as well.
Asbed Bedrossian (00:02:46):
But the drama associated with Eurocrats trying to prevent Fico and Vučić was a
Asbed Bedrossian (00:02:52):
topic for a lot of programs out there.
Asbed Bedrossian (00:02:55):
Meanwhile,
Asbed Bedrossian (00:02:56):
in the US,
Asbed Bedrossian (00:02:57):
Trump is pushing to reframe the Allied victory as a distinctly American
Asbed Bedrossian (00:03:03):
accomplishment in World War II.
Asbed Bedrossian (00:03:06):
Can you give us your impressions of May 9, both the parade and the geopolitics around it?
Asbed Bedrossian (00:03:11):
Well,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:03:12):
first of all,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:03:13):
May 9 for the Russians is,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:03:16):
and not only for the Russians,
(00:03:17):
I mean, for most people in the former Soviet Union,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:03:19):
but you know, at the core, the Russians.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:03:23):
It is a sacred holiday.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:03:25):
And this is the 80th anniversary.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:03:28):
So there's added significance to this.
(00:03:30):
I mean, you have to think,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:03:31):
the sacrifice of the Soviet Union in World War II,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:03:37):
26 to 27 million people were killed.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:03:41):
Soviet citizens were killed in the war.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:03:43):
That's an enormous sacrifice.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:03:44):
It's a sacrifice that we can't even comprehend
Pietro Sharkarian (00:03:48):
in terms of the West.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:03:51):
So this is enormous.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:03:52):
And then in addition to that,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:03:55):
it's also geopolitically very important because you see the position of Xi at this event,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:04:05):
that he and Putin are getting together.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:04:07):
There was this kind of like synergy between China and Russia.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:04:13):
And that really tells you quite a bit about where the world is going,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:04:17):
where the West has really kind of
Pietro Sharkarian (00:04:19):
push the situation.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:04:21):
So Russia and China are now closer together than they've ever been before.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:04:25):
And also the other thing that struck me about this is that,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:04:29):
you know,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:04:30):
this was really kind of a celebration of the rest versus the West.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:04:38):
Again, I talk about the rise of the rest versus the West.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:04:41):
The West was virtually absent.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:04:43):
The only two EU or European leaders there,
(00:04:48):
aside from,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:04:48):
of course,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:04:49):
Vladimir Putin,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:04:50):
because Russia's also a European country,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:04:53):
the only two European leaders there were Vučić and Fico.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:04:56):
That's all.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:04:57):
nobody else no no no uh you know macron no starmer no mertz no kaya kalas you know
Pietro Sharkarian (00:05:07):
thank god you know kaya kalas was not there you know I mean that would that would
Pietro Sharkarian (00:05:11):
that would be too much actually uh but you know Xi was the guest of honor at this
Pietro Sharkarian (00:05:16):
event and uh you know this was all there were also concerns that ukraine was going
Pietro Sharkarian (00:05:21):
to be
Pietro Sharkarian (00:05:23):
that the Ukrainians might disrupt the proceedings.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:05:26):
There were, of course, Ukrainian drone attacks, threats to Russia from Ukraine.
(00:05:33):
There was even,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:05:33):
at the very beginning of the parade,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:05:36):
we even saw Maduro clasping his hands almost prayer-like,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:05:40):
as if to be praying that hopefully nothing goes wrong here.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:05:44):
But the weather was excellent.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:05:46):
It was an enormously successful event.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:05:49):
And again, it highlighted where things are today.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:05:53):
And at the end of the parade, Putin met also, I should mention, with North Korean troops.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:05:58):
There were contingents from all sorts of,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:06:00):
there were contingents from various foreign countries there,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:06:04):
I should also mention.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:06:05):
Plus also Putin met with veterans of the war,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:06:08):
including Armenian veterans of the Great Patriotic War.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:06:11):
So yeah, absolutely.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:06:13):
It was an enormously successful event.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:06:16):
Yeah,
(00:06:17):
I mean,
Hovik Manucharyan (00:06:17):
if I could just comment on the battle over historical narratives,
Hovik Manucharyan (00:06:21):
I think that is disappointing that,
(00:06:24):
you know,
Hovik Manucharyan (00:06:24):
it has come to this,
(00:06:25):
but,
Hovik Manucharyan (00:06:25):
you know,
Hovik Manucharyan (00:06:26):
wars can be wars,
Hovik Manucharyan (00:06:27):
geopolitics can be geopolitics,
Hovik Manucharyan (00:06:28):
but the truth,
Hovik Manucharyan (00:06:30):
changing the truth,
(00:06:31):
I mean,
Hovik Manucharyan (00:06:31):
we Armenians are,
Hovik Manucharyan (00:06:34):
the last five years,
Hovik Manucharyan (00:06:35):
have experienced that on our own skin,
(00:06:38):
but,
(00:06:38):
you know,
Hovik Manucharyan (00:06:38):
I will always...
Hovik Manucharyan (00:06:41):
attributed that to we're a small country,
Hovik Manucharyan (00:06:43):
it's easier to overpower and silence us and brainwash us.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:06:49):
But it seems to be like this changing of the narratives of what happened is
Hovik Manucharyan (00:06:55):
happening at such a grand scale that I can't even fathom how that's going to turn out.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:07:02):
Well,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:07:03):
also you have to think about it like this,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:07:04):
that World War II,
(00:07:06):
I mean,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:07:06):
the Great Patriotic War was enormously significant for the Armenians.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:07:11):
So I mentioned about the 27 million Soviet citizens who died in the war, right?
Pietro Sharkarian (00:07:17):
It's 26 to 27 million.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:07:19):
Now that's about,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:07:20):
to get this,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:07:21):
just think about this,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:07:23):
this is 14% of the pre-war Soviet population.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:07:27):
That's enormous.
(00:07:30):
Right.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:07:30):
You have whole, you know, classes of people.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:07:34):
You know, they might have been graduating from school who went off and died in the war.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:07:39):
It was an incredible, incredible sacrifice of the Soviet people.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:07:43):
They even had something called Ivan's widows.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:07:45):
There were so many women who were widowed as a result of the war.
(00:07:50):
Right.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:07:50):
But 14 percent of the pre-war Soviet population, if you go by republic,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:07:55):
it's like 25%,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:07:56):
if we talk about the Slavic Republics,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:07:58):
because again,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:07:59):
for the Soviet Union,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:08:01):
this was a war of survival.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:08:03):
If you look at Hitler's Mein Kampf,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:08:05):
if you look at his ideology of Lebensraum,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:08:08):
the idea was to exterminate the Slavic peoples.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:08:11):
The Slav is the slave.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:08:12):
So in addition to killing six million Jews,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:08:15):
there was also this very strong genocidal intent against the Slavic people.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:08:19):
So in Belarus, I just want to break this down for you, because this is really important.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:08:24):
In Belarus, 25% of the pre-war population died.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:08:25):
In Ukraine, 16% of the pre-war population died.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:08:32):
In Russia, 13% of the pre-war population died.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:08:35):
Now,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:08:36):
interesting statistic is that in Armenia,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:08:38):
14% of the pre-war population died,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:08:42):
and Armenia was not even part of the active theater of hostilities.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:08:46):
The Armenian Republic punched above its weight in terms of its contribution to the
Pietro Sharkarian (00:08:51):
Soviet victory in the war.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:08:53):
And also,
(00:08:54):
not only,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:08:54):
and also Artsakh sees,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:08:55):
actually,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:08:56):
people from Artsakh,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:08:58):
enormous contribution to the victory.
(00:09:01):
So, yeah.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:09:01):
Well...
Hovik Manucharyan (00:09:02):
Yeah,
Hovik Manucharyan (00:09:03):
so definitely there is a lot to talk about and we're going to dive into all those details.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:09:09):
But, you know, let's just talk about the events itself in terms of today's geopolitics.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:09:16):
Armenia's approach to Victory Day this year stood in stark contrast to Azerbaijan's.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:09:22):
while Nikol Pashinyan attended the Moscow events without a military contingent.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:09:27):
Ilham Aliyev skipped the parade.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:09:29):
That's interesting in and of itself.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:09:31):
But Azerbaijan did send its own troops to participate in the parade.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:09:37):
And I guess, you know, does this underscore some kind of the shifting geopolitical dynamics?
Hovik Manucharyan (00:09:42):
You know, I wanted to get your thoughts on that.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:09:44):
Why did Pashinyan decline to send troops?
Hovik Manucharyan (00:09:47):
And what message did he intend to send with that?
Pietro Sharkarian (00:09:51):
It's a really interesting scenario because,
(00:09:54):
again,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:09:54):
you have a national leader who didn't attend,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:09:56):
but his troops came.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:09:58):
And then you have a national leader who did attend, but his troops didn't.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:10:01):
He didn't send, you know, a military contingent with him.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:10:05):
I think that first and foremost,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:10:07):
even independent of what message is trying to be sent to Moscow from Baku or Yerevan,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:10:13):
it also,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:10:14):
in my point of view,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:10:16):
indicates kind of the shifting
Pietro Sharkarian (00:10:18):
balance that Pashinyan has not focused on developing Armenia's defenses.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:10:23):
Armenia is in a much weaker position as a result of his administration,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:10:27):
shall we say,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:10:28):
or his regime,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:10:29):
as I like to call it.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:10:32):
And
Pietro Sharkarian (00:10:33):
Whereas Aliyev is eager to show off his military prowess, that this is our great success.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:10:40):
Plus also you have to understand,
(00:10:41):
too,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:10:41):
that those Azeri troops who were on display there,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:10:43):
those were Azeri commandos who were trained by Turkey.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:10:47):
They were trained by NATO, actually, as a matter of fact.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:10:50):
It was funny, I should mention this, because during World War II,
Hovik Manucharyan (00:10:54):
the main people from Azerbaijan or the territory of Azerbaijan who actually participated,
Hovik Manucharyan (00:11:01):
Armenians from Artsakh,
Hovik Manucharyan (00:11:02):
from Karabakh,
Hovik Manucharyan (00:11:03):
had punched above their weight inside Azerbaijan itself.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:11:08):
And they had a much, you know, look at the number of generals we gave and so forth.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:11:13):
And so for Aliyev to take credit and with Turkish-trained troops and NATO-trained
Hovik Manucharyan (00:11:19):
troops is a little bit...
Hovik Manucharyan (00:11:23):
I don't know, surreal, paradoxical.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:11:24):
And also not only that,
Hovik Manucharyan (00:11:25):
I mean,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:11:26):
that's not even counting the fact that he's actively tearing down
Pietro Sharkarian (00:11:29):
monuments to our heroes in Artsakh Aliyev.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:11:32):
I mean, this is what he's doing.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:11:33):
But apparently also, you have to think too, Pashinyan apparently has no problem with that.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:11:37):
In addition to recognizing Artsakh as part of Azerbaijan,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:11:40):
he has not uttered one word of protest of the desecration of the monuments of
Pietro Sharkarian (00:11:47):
Armenian heroes from Artsakh in Artsakh itself by the Azerbaijani authorities.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:11:51):
He has not said one thing about that, unsurprisingly, shall we say.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:11:57):
But yeah.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:11:58):
No, but I think also the other thing too is, first of all, with Pashinyan.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:12:04):
So he's not sending troops,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:12:06):
but at the same time he's going,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:12:08):
which is kind of interesting because it also indicates that
Pietro Sharkarian (00:12:11):
at some point the the effort of Armenia to pivot west his grand idea for Armenia to
Pietro Sharkarian (00:12:16):
join the EU has more or less failed it's kind of an admission that has more or less
Pietro Sharkarian (00:12:21):
failed but he doesn't want to fully admit it so he himself is going but is
Pietro Sharkarian (00:12:27):
he's not sending any contingent of troops to kind of augment,
(00:12:31):
you know,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:12:31):
I guess you could say that message.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:12:33):
Whereas Azerbaijan,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:12:35):
it's interesting because it still shows that no matter what kind of overtures the
Pietro Sharkarian (00:12:39):
Russians try to make toward Aliyev,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:12:43):
or toward Baku, that at the end of the day, Baku feels no loyalty to Russia.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:12:47):
At the end of the day,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:12:48):
they're basically saying,
(00:12:49):
well,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:12:49):
you know what,
(00:12:50):
you know,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:12:50):
screw you,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:12:51):
we can do what we want.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:12:53):
And even the, I mean, Aliyev, you have to think, I mean, he, I believe, correct me if I'm wrong,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:12:59):
But I believe he attended Victory Day in Moscow 10 years ago in 2015.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:13:04):
So it's not unprecedented.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:13:06):
It's not like as if his father's birthday is so big that he has to be every year.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:13:11):
And it's not like they didn't know the birthday was coming up.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:13:15):
You know, they announced that he was going...
Hovik Manucharyan (00:13:17):
And then suddenly he says, oh, I got my father's birthday.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:13:20):
I forgot about it.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:13:22):
I think the original excuse,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:13:23):
Hovik,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:13:24):
was to use Benjamin Netanyahu's visit as the reason for not going.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:13:30):
And then when Netanyahu did not come to Baku, then he had to think of something else.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:13:35):
And that's why I think that his father came in handy, let's say, at that point.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:13:42):
Although, again, this was like, what, I think the 102nd
Pietro Sharkarian (00:13:45):
birthday of hadar aliev so it wasn't even that significant of a birthday it wasn't
Pietro Sharkarian (00:13:49):
like 105 or 110 or something you know like a magical number even it was just like
Pietro Sharkarian (00:13:55):
just it was a lame excuse and i'm sure the Russians took note of that but yeah but
Hovik Manucharyan (00:13:59):
but what what do you attribute that to I mean there must be a reason because uh he
Hovik Manucharyan (00:14:04):
wouldn't cancel it
Hovik Manucharyan (00:14:06):
out of the blue, right?
Hovik Manucharyan (00:14:07):
I mean, last minute.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:14:08):
Also, I think that, you know, well, I think it's just that he doesn't respect him.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:14:11):
He doesn't respect the Russians.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:14:13):
But I think it's also kind of stupid because,
(00:14:15):
you know,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:14:15):
really the Russians are emerging from this whole Ukrainian war as being,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:14:20):
you know,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:14:22):
One of the top, if not the top military forces in the world.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:14:24):
So if Azerbaijan really,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:14:26):
they are,
(00:14:27):
if they're really,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:14:27):
if they think of themselves as a great military force,
(00:14:30):
right?
Pietro Sharkarian (00:14:30):
A rising middle power or, you know, the, you know, power center in the Caucasus.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:14:36):
They like to stress this, right?
Pietro Sharkarian (00:14:38):
Wouldn't they want to know what the most advanced military in the world is?
Pietro Sharkarian (00:14:41):
is doing, what the technology is that they're going to have on display, and so on and so forth.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:14:46):
Unless Aliyev really believes NATO is the future,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:14:49):
unless he still is trapped in this,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:14:51):
just like Pashinyan,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:14:52):
by the way,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:14:53):
this idea that somehow the West is the future,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:14:57):
that Kaja Kallas
Pietro Sharkarian (00:14:59):
and that,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:15:00):
I don't know,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:15:01):
Von der Leyen and that Starmer and Trump and all our favorite people,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:15:07):
that that's the future,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:15:09):
right?
Pietro Sharkarian (00:15:10):
And we smile about this because we think,
(00:15:13):
you know,
(00:15:13):
I mean,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:15:13):
that this is completely ridiculous,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:15:14):
but it is...
(00:15:17):
very,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:15:17):
very possible that Aliyev and his crew,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:15:19):
you know,
(00:15:20):
I mean,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:15:20):
you look at somebody like Hajiyev who went to the NATO War College.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:15:23):
He studied at the NATO War College.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:15:25):
They believe still in that this is, I guess you could say, the unipolar American moment.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:15:31):
They're still kind of, you know, stuck in this, you know, belief.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:15:37):
And so it has not yet set in the ramifications of what's going on in Ukraine and
Pietro Sharkarian (00:15:43):
what it means for the region.
Asbed Bedrossian (00:15:45):
In general,
(00:15:46):
though,
(00:15:46):
Pietro,
Asbed Bedrossian (00:15:46):
I think the Turks have been very good at hedging their bets rather than betting on
Asbed Bedrossian (00:15:51):
one horse or the other one.
(00:15:53):
You know,
Asbed Bedrossian (00:15:53):
witness their stance in both world wars where they started off with the wrong side
Asbed Bedrossian (00:15:59):
and they lost and then they turn quoted and they went to the winning side.
(00:16:04):
No,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:16:04):
I agree with you,
(00:16:05):
Asbed,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:16:05):
and we're going to,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:16:06):
I think,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:16:07):
go to that point shortly with regard to some other issues.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:16:12):
So let's start going in that direction.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:16:15):
Inside Armenia, there is also historic revisionism happening.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:16:19):
On May 9,
Hovik Manucharyan (00:16:20):
Armenia's public TV aired a primetime interview with Artsrun Hovhannisyan,
Hovik Manucharyan (00:16:26):
the guy from “Haghteluenk” fame,
Hovik Manucharyan (00:16:27):
you know,
Hovik Manucharyan (00:16:29):
who lied to the Armenian public for 44 days during the Artsakh war.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:16:34):
He was essentially calling for a reassessment of the World War II legacy for modern Armenia,
Hovik Manucharyan (00:16:40):
and this comes amid broader efforts to downplay Armenia's significant contributions
Hovik Manucharyan (00:16:48):
to the Soviet war effort,
Hovik Manucharyan (00:16:49):
from key military leaders to entire divisions that played critical roles in major battles.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:16:57):
So,
(00:16:58):
as you said,
Hovik Manucharyan (00:16:58):
despite not being attacked by Nazi Germany,
Hovik Manucharyan (00:17:01):
Armenia,
(00:17:02):
as you say,
Hovik Manucharyan (00:17:02):
contributed mightily,
Hovik Manucharyan (00:17:04):
not just in terms of the number of deaths,
Hovik Manucharyan (00:17:07):
in terms of sacrifices given,
Hovik Manucharyan (00:17:08):
but also recruitment.
(00:17:10):
I mean,
Hovik Manucharyan (00:17:10):
I was amazed to see that Armenia was the third or fourth highest in terms of per
Hovik Manucharyan (00:17:14):
capita soldiers.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:17:17):
And it was also high in Artsakh, as we said, but the rest of Azerbaijan was definitely low.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:17:24):
Arthur Martirosyan was on our podcast earlier today,
Hovik Manucharyan (00:17:28):
Monday,
Hovik Manucharyan (00:17:29):
and he hinted that these are attempts to diminish the Soviet contributions and
Hovik Manucharyan (00:17:35):
essentially recraft,
Hovik Manucharyan (00:17:37):
socially engineer a new identity for us.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:17:40):
First of all, who is Artsrun Hovhannisyan?
Hovik Manucharyan (00:17:44):
I jokingly,
Hovik Manucharyan (00:17:45):
before the show,
Hovik Manucharyan (00:17:46):
I was calling him Nazi sympathizer,
Hovik Manucharyan (00:17:49):
but I think that's a good name for him.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:17:51):
Because in that show, he was actually saying some pretty sympathetic things towards Nazis.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:17:57):
Yeah.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:17:59):
So Artsrun Hovhannisyan, who is he?
Hovik Manucharyan (00:18:01):
Tell us more.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:18:03):
Well, he is a weapons specialist.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:18:05):
I mean, this is what he bills himself as.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:18:07):
I mean, that's his, you know, I guess his forte.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:18:11):
But it is,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:18:12):
I think,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:18:13):
a disgrace that you have anybody affiliated with the Armenian military trying to
Pietro Sharkarian (00:18:20):
praise Nazi Germany or create this kind of revisionist historiography where
Pietro Sharkarian (00:18:25):
basically he says that the so-called...
(00:18:30):
I mean,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:18:30):
he is using this idea of kind of like,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:18:32):
I guess,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:18:33):
a unified Armenia or something like that.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:18:35):
He's talking about both Eastern and Western Armenia,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:18:37):
that if Nazi Germany had won the war,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:18:39):
then Armenia would be completely liberated.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:18:41):
This is his idea, effectively.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:18:43):
But this is a gross distortion of the facts, because... So, first of all, first of all, hold on.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:18:48):
Armenia, we know Eastern Armenia, so Eastern Armenia would be liberated.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:18:53):
But he also talked about Western Armenia, so...
Hovik Manucharyan (00:18:57):
Nazi Germany is going to take Western Armenia from its ally, Turkey, and give it to Armenians.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:19:09):
For what?
Hovik Manucharyan (00:19:10):
For our beautiful eyes, or what?
(00:19:12):
No,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:19:12):
I think actually you hit on an important point there when you call it Nazi Turkey,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:19:16):
because Turkey was extremely sympathetic to Nazis.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:19:18):
And actually, not only, that love was reciprocated, because Hitler loved out of Turk,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:19:24):
Hitler had the famous line, you know, on the eve of the war, who now remembers the Armenians?
Pietro Sharkarian (00:19:29):
Right.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:19:30):
So we kind of took some inspiration from what the young Turks did to the Armenians
Pietro Sharkarian (00:19:35):
in 1915 as he was preparing his own kind of genocidal plans against Jews and Slavs
Pietro Sharkarian (00:19:40):
and others.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:19:41):
And Hitler was a huge fan of Turkey, and Turkey returned that love.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:19:46):
They were planning,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:19:48):
this is what the documentary evidence shows us,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:19:50):
that they were planning to attack the Soviet Union in the south,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:19:56):
in the area of eastern Armenia,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:20:00):
if the Soviets lost the battle of Stalingrad.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:20:04):
Which would mean the complete extinction
Pietro Sharkarian (00:20:07):
the finishing of what happened in 1915.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:20:10):
So this idea that somehow Turkey through,
(00:20:13):
you know,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:20:13):
would be so magnanimous as to give Armenia,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:20:16):
Western Armenia,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:20:17):
you know,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:20:18):
because they love Armenians so much.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:20:20):
It's complete.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:20:21):
It's complete hogwash.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:20:22):
It's complete distortion.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:20:23):
It's complete, just like, you know, Artsrun Hovhannisyan, his specialty is lying.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:20:28):
This is complete lies.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:20:29):
And also the other thing I think is really funny and really ridiculous is how that,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:20:34):
let's say this might have been some idea from the top,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:20:37):
to introduce a revisionist history of World War II in Armenia.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:20:42):
Why would you take the guy with the least credibility to advance your argument?
Pietro Sharkarian (00:20:47):
The guy who was lying to the people for 44 days.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:20:50):
There's no way, I mean, how would that help?
Pietro Sharkarian (00:20:54):
And also, it completely, you know, contradicts the archival record.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:21:00):
You know, I'm an archival historian.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:21:01):
I've worked with materials on Soviet Armenia.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:21:04):
I wrote a whole book on Soviet Armenia, effectively, with Anastas Mikoyan.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:21:09):
And I can tell you that...
Pietro Sharkarian (00:21:11):
this guy is not serious he knows he knows nothing about history or historiography
Hovik Manucharyan (00:21:16):
or anything so apparently also uh so after the 44 day war he was appointed for his
Hovik Manucharyan (00:21:23):
good work uh as a reward for his good work by uh I guess he's some kind of a
Hovik Manucharyan (00:21:28):
leadership position at the Vazgen Sargsyan Military Academy essentially training
Hovik Manucharyan (00:21:33):
uh some of our future soldiers which is oh my God frightening so I mean it is a
Pietro Sharkarian (00:21:39):
What I'm actually concerned with is that they might rename the Vazgen Sargsyan
Pietro Sharkarian (00:21:44):
Academy to the Aram Sargsyan Academy.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:21:46):
I mean, that's where they're going.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:21:48):
I mean, with this, I mean, that's how I see it.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:21:50):
But also I want to address something else.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:21:52):
The Victory Day in Armenia at the core is the victory in the Great Patriotic War, World War II.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:21:58):
But also we have,
(00:21:59):
you know,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:21:59):
the liberation of Shushi,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:22:01):
the establishment of the Artsakh Defense Forces.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:22:04):
So for,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:22:05):
and also you have to think about what this also means because Artsakhtsis gave so
Pietro Sharkarian (00:22:09):
much to the war.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:22:10):
So much of the great Armenian heroes from the war
Pietro Sharkarian (00:22:13):
were from, they had roots in Artsakh.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:22:16):
So like Khudyakov or Nelson Stepanyan or
Pietro Sharkarian (00:22:21):
Even if you think about the greater Artsakh,
(00:22:22):
I mean,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:22:22):
you have,
(00:22:23):
you know,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:22:23):
roots from Gandzak,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:22:24):
so you should know that Marshal Baghramyan,
(00:22:27):
you know,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:22:27):
himself has those roots,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:22:30):
right?
Pietro Sharkarian (00:22:31):
And when we look at this history,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:22:34):
Artsakh,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:22:35):
the special role of Artsakh in the Great Patriotic War was augmented by the Shushi
Pietro Sharkarian (00:22:40):
liberation and was augmented by the establishment of the Artsakh Defense Forces.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:22:46):
So really, when we talk about Victory Day for Armenians, what does it mean?
Pietro Sharkarian (00:22:51):
Victory Day for Armenians demonstrates what Armenians are capable of accomplishing
Pietro Sharkarian (00:22:57):
as a united nation,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:22:58):
especially in military terms.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:23:01):
It's a date of enormous pride for Armenians.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:23:06):
It's about the self-confidence of the Armenians.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:23:10):
Now, ask yourself this.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:23:12):
Why would somebody want to undermine that?
Pietro Sharkarian (00:23:16):
Why would somebody not want to talk about moments of Armenian pride or moments of
Pietro Sharkarian (00:23:22):
Armenian self-confidence or really kind of put a wet blanket on efforts for
Pietro Sharkarian (00:23:27):
Armenians to be confident about themselves?
Pietro Sharkarian (00:23:30):
I should also mention this,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:23:31):
that there are also new narratives among kind of liberal Armenians and NGOniks in
Pietro Sharkarian (00:23:37):
Hayastan who want to frame this as,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:23:39):
Well, the Great Patriotic War, yes,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:23:41):
it was previously a day of pride and celebration,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:23:46):
but now it's a time of mourning,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:23:48):
you know,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:23:49):
this kind of a thing because we lost our sock and so on and so forth and well we
Pietro Sharkarian (00:23:54):
thought we were something but now I guess we're not and so on and so forth but no
Pietro Sharkarian (00:23:59):
the Victory Day is not only a celebration of past glories it also shows what we are
Pietro Sharkarian (00:24:05):
capable of and what we can accomplish uh in the future now again to rewrite that
Pietro Sharkarian (00:24:11):
history
Pietro Sharkarian (00:24:13):
I think is to really undermine Armenian national self-confidence.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:24:17):
And that's when I get to the question,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:24:19):
why would anybody in the Armenian government want to undermine Armenian national self-confidence?
Pietro Sharkarian (00:24:26):
Hovik, what do you think?
Hovik Manucharyan (00:24:27):
We know why they're doing it.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:24:28):
They're effectively a Turkish occupying force.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:24:31):
That's why they're doing it.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:24:32):
But I don't believe that they'll be successful.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:24:36):
But even if they chip away at it, like, you know, piece by piece, it has an effect.
(00:24:42):
Well,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:24:42):
I think that the idea is that it would accompany the weakening,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:24:46):
the purposeful weakening of Armenia.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:24:49):
and Armenia's defenses and defensive forces.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:24:52):
So when we see what has happened to Armenia,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:24:57):
especially since 2020,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:24:59):
I guess you could say kind of neutralize Armenia at the behest of Turkey and Azerbaijan,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:25:07):
that this is the ideological component of that.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:25:09):
So there was the weakening in terms of the hard defenses of Armenia,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:25:14):
of its military might,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:25:15):
its military strength.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:25:17):
The arrest of its top military commanders,
(00:25:21):
you know,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:25:21):
before the war in Artsakh,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:25:22):
people don't talk about that.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:25:24):
You have to think also, again, famously before the so-called Velvet Revolution.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:25:32):
Serge was actually preparing for a military modernization of Armenia, right?
Pietro Sharkarian (00:25:38):
He had a big kind of program that he was planning,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:25:42):
and this program was never implemented conveniently.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:25:46):
But to undermine the narrative of the Great Patriotic War in Armenia,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:25:51):
to undermine the narrative of Victory Day,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:25:53):
of Armenian military achievements,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:25:56):
It's done with a very purposeful intention of,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:26:00):
that would be like,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:26:01):
I guess you could say,
(00:26:02):
again,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:26:02):
the ideological element of the weakening of Armenia.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:26:07):
But I don't think, like you say, I don't think they'll succeed.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:26:10):
And actually already this year,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:26:12):
we can see in Armenia that despite their best efforts,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:26:15):
the Victory Day still was widely marked,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:26:17):
widely celebrated.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:26:18):
There was the Immortal Regiment in Armenia, right?
(00:26:23):
That actually,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:26:23):
this is something that originated from the Russian city of Tomsk as kind of a
Pietro Sharkarian (00:26:27):
completely grassroots thing.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:26:28):
This is not something that came from
Pietro Sharkarian (00:26:30):
Putin or the Russian government or anything like that.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:26:33):
And so for our listeners,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:26:36):
again,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:26:37):
I have to emphasize this,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:26:39):
that when we talk about the Second World War in the Soviet context,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:26:44):
contrary to what Trump has said,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:26:47):
it was not the U.S.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:26:48):
I mean, the U.S., of course, the major U.S.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:26:50):
role in the war was in the Pacific.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:26:53):
but the U.S.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:26:54):
did not single-handedly win World War II and they certainly didn't win
Pietro Sharkarian (00:26:58):
it single-handedly in Europe that it was the Soviet Union that won the war in
Pietro Sharkarian (00:27:03):
europe right and uh so so the sacrifice was so immense that people even to this day
Pietro Sharkarian (00:27:13):
want to preserve the memory of their forebearers who participated in in the war so
Pietro Sharkarian (00:27:19):
what happened in the city of Tomsk is people basically
Pietro Sharkarian (00:27:22):
They organized a rally where they highlighted,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:27:25):
they took signs with the images of their family members who participated in the war,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:27:30):
and they marched with them.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:27:32):
And then eventually this spread to other Russian cities,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:27:35):
it spread to other former Soviet republics,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:27:38):
including Armenia,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:27:39):
and now it's become a major international event.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:27:42):
So in Yerevan there was a very impressive showing,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:27:44):
actually,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:27:45):
of this immortal regiment,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:27:46):
despite the efforts to rewrite the history.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:27:49):
So, yeah.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:27:50):
So I should mention that a little Armenia,
Hovik Manucharyan (00:27:53):
besides punching above its weight in terms of manpower,
Hovik Manucharyan (00:27:56):
also contributed greatly to the leadership of the USSR's armed forces.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:28:03):
I mean, we had tons of generals, but besides that, we had three marshals.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:28:10):
So Hovhannes Baghramyan,
Hovik Manucharyan (00:28:12):
Hamazasp Babajanyan,
Hovik Manucharyan (00:28:13):
and Sergei Khudyakov,
Hovik Manucharyan (00:28:14):
whose Armenian name is Armenak Khanperyants.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:28:19):
and uh I mean they eventually became marshals some may have become after the war
Hovik Manucharyan (00:28:24):
but they were definitely in the high leadership and then also Ivan Isakov uh after
Hovik Manucharyan (00:28:29):
whom I mean after all these people there are streets named in Yerevan but the U.S.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:28:33):
embassy is based on Isakov street I believe uh in Yerevan his Armenian
Hovik Manucharyan (00:28:39):
name is Hovhannes Ter-Isahakyan so he had to change it but
Hovik Manucharyan (00:28:42):
or he decided to change it, but he became an admiral.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:28:45):
I mean,
Hovik Manucharyan (00:28:46):
just imagine little Armenia contributing so much to the leadership of the Soviet
Hovik Manucharyan (00:28:49):
Union armed forces.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:28:52):
Also espionage too,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:28:53):
because if we look at like,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:28:54):
you know,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:28:55):
Gohar and Gevork Vartanyan,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:28:58):
they actually,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:28:59):
you know,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:29:01):
They thwarted a Nazi assassination attempt against the big three in Tehran, right?
Pietro Sharkarian (00:29:08):
So there's also that element, too.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:29:10):
Plus also,
(00:29:11):
you know,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:29:11):
Mikoyan,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:29:12):
the Mikoyan family,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:29:13):
the Artyom Mikoyan,
(00:29:15):
you know,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:29:15):
we talk about his work with designing the famous MiG fighter.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:29:20):
Also, Anastas Mikoyan helped with supply at the front, but also his son of Vladimir Mikoyan.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:29:26):
Yeah.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:29:27):
died in the Battle of Stalingrad.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:29:28):
And that's not even counting the 89th Tamanian Division.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:29:32):
There's so much we could talk about with this.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:29:35):
There's this famous video of them dancing the Kochari in Berlin.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:29:40):
And also the Sadarabad,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:29:42):
I want to also say this,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:29:43):
that when we talk about Baghramyan,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:29:44):
there's the connection even with the First Republic.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:29:47):
So we talk about the Sardarabad Battle in 1918,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:29:51):
which basically ensured the physical existence of the Armenian people.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:29:56):
that this was a battle that Baghramyan actually participated in.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:30:00):
So this is a history that absolutely must be preserved.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:30:03):
People should not be whitewashing it or distorting it or anything.
(00:30:07):
So,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:30:07):
Hovik,
Asbed Bedrossian (00:30:08):
I think when Pietro was mentioning that the Armenian nation actually gave 14% of
Asbed Bedrossian (00:30:15):
casualties from its pre-war population,
Asbed Bedrossian (00:30:19):
I was thinking that one in seven people died and every family experienced loss.
Asbed Bedrossian (00:30:26):
I know that your family also did.
Asbed Bedrossian (00:30:27):
Do you want to talk about that?
Hovik Manucharyan (00:30:29):
Not my family directly, but definitely, yes, I do want to talk about my wife's great uncle.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:30:37):
His name was Gevorg Kolozyan.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:30:39):
I've been around their family so much that it feels personal to me too.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:30:43):
He was just a young man from Nor Bayazet.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:30:47):
Today it's called Gavar in Armenia.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:30:50):
And he went to the war and was captured by the Germans.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:30:54):
But he didn't stay a prisoner for long.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:30:57):
He escaped and joined the Italian resistance, fighting alongside the Garibaldi Brigade.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:31:02):
That was one of the resistance brigades in Italy.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:31:06):
If you want to know more about him,
Hovik Manucharyan (00:31:07):
we'll have the links in the show notes,
Hovik Manucharyan (00:31:08):
but he essentially led missions to capture German soldiers,
Hovik Manucharyan (00:31:13):
sabotage supply lines,
Hovik Manucharyan (00:31:15):
and even after being wounded,
Hovik Manucharyan (00:31:17):
he kept fighting until the end,
Hovik Manucharyan (00:31:19):
and he was awarded for that by the Italian government.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:31:23):
Today he is buried in the cemetery of Radicondoli, which is a small town in Tuscany.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:31:31):
And it's pretty far from the small Armenian town where he grew up.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:31:35):
And I'm not sure if any of his family members have gotten the chance to visit this place.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:31:41):
But yeah, definitely next time I'm in Tuscany, I'll be definitely...
Hovik Manucharyan (00:31:47):
going to Radicondoli.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:31:49):
And if anyone is listening to us from there,
Hovik Manucharyan (00:31:51):
maybe, you know, you could visit and take a picture of the gravesite.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:31:56):
We would really appreciate it.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:31:58):
One thing I also want to just kind of add to what Hovik said is we also should remember,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:32:02):
and we talked about the Allied war effort,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:32:05):
Allied war effort.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:32:07):
that there were Armenians also,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:32:10):
certainly in the American army,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:32:12):
there were Armenians in the French resistance.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:32:15):
So again,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:32:16):
the Armenians contributed massively to this major victory against a major evil in
Pietro Sharkarian (00:32:22):
human history.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:32:23):
That's something alone that we should be marking.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:32:27):
But again, the fact that, you know, I also think it's important to emphasize this.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:32:32):
The fact that Artsakh played such a big role in this has to be absolutely underscored.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:32:36):
You know, that to diminish the memory of the Armenian sacrifice is bad enough.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:32:41):
But to diminish specifically the role of Artsakh, I think, is unconscionable.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:32:46):
Absolutely.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:32:47):
There's kind of like a purposeful memory loss.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:32:50):
as I see it, unfortunately.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:32:52):
And Armenians should not,
(00:32:56):
you know,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:32:56):
they should not accept a kind of a crude revision of their national history,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:33:02):
especially when it concerns their national pride,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:33:05):
their national achievements,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:33:07):
and a reflection of what they can accomplish as a united nation against major
Pietro Sharkarian (00:33:13):
external threats.
(00:33:15):
In fact,
Hovik Manucharyan (00:33:15):
we are talking about World War II,
Hovik Manucharyan (00:33:17):
but this definitely extends to the memory of the Armenian genocide,
Hovik Manucharyan (00:33:22):
which the same government is trying to downplay and revise as well.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:33:26):
So,
(00:33:27):
yeah,
Hovik Manucharyan (00:33:27):
I definitely concur with that,
Hovik Manucharyan (00:33:30):
Pietro,
Hovik Manucharyan (00:33:31):
and thank you for,
(00:33:32):
I guess,
Hovik Manucharyan (00:33:32):
for talking to us about this topic.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:33:35):
Absolutely.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:33:36):
Anytime you guys need me to talk about this.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:33:38):
This is a topic that absolutely needs to be emphasized and the memory of the war in
Pietro Sharkarian (00:33:44):
Armenia and the memory of
Pietro Sharkarian (00:33:45):
Armenian military heroes absolutely should not be whitewashed or forgotten,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:33:52):
just like the memory of the Genocide should not be whitewashed or forgotten,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:33:56):
or even this idea of Armenia's connection with its old historical past.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:34:02):
When I hear things like that today's Armenia has no relation to the historical Armenia,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:34:07):
I think that that
(00:34:09):
It's,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:34:09):
frankly,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:34:10):
it's disgusting that we even have such leaders,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:34:13):
quote unquote,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:34:14):
who say such things.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:34:16):
So hopefully it will change.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:34:17):
Hopefully it will change.
(00:34:18):
Absolutely.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:34:18):
And hopefully it will change soon.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:34:20):
That's all I have to say.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:34:22):
So before we go,
Hovik Manucharyan (00:34:23):
I think it's important to highlight,
(00:34:26):
you know,
Hovik Manucharyan (00:34:26):
we're not trying to push one side or the other.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:34:31):
World War II was truly an immense loss on all countries.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:34:35):
And the victory was also a shared victory.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:34:41):
It's important to remember and recognize the fact that U.S.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:34:48):
supplies,
Hovik Manucharyan (00:34:49):
lend-lease and all those contributions that the United States and other countries
Hovik Manucharyan (00:34:54):
have provided towards the war.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:34:57):
What could you say about this, Pietro?
Hovik Manucharyan (00:34:58):
I mean, we don't want to take sides here, but in the end, 27 million people from USSR died.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:35:08):
Which is huge.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:35:09):
I mean, the US, by comparison, is like 300,000, I believe.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:35:14):
So that loss is absolutely enormous.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:35:17):
It's not even counting also the contribution, let's say, of the Chinese.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:35:21):
So we see Xi there with Putin.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:35:23):
Think about how the Chinese, Hovik, suffered under the Japanese.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:35:28):
I mean, I don't need to go into all the... It was absolutely brutal.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:35:31):
And so the Chinese,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:35:32):
too,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:35:33):
when Putin in his speech mentioned about the sacrifice of the Chinese,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:35:37):
that was a huge thing to stress.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:35:39):
Absolutely.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:35:40):
China and Russia.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:35:41):
and also you have to think the other thing too I just want to mention quickly about
Pietro Sharkarian (00:35:44):
you know Xi and Putin that they were on the sidelines really really intensive uh
Pietro Sharkarian (00:35:49):
discussions and Xi was smiling which meant that he really liked what he was seeing
Pietro Sharkarian (00:35:53):
there you know on victory day in in Moscow but it was a historic victory day
Pietro Sharkarian (00:35:58):
especially in terms of what it represented with between uh you know Russia and
Pietro Sharkarian (00:36:03):
China like I said and their synergy but kind of going back to this idea of the
Pietro Sharkarian (00:36:08):
America won World War II
Pietro Sharkarian (00:36:10):
Of course, you know, the most, the latest person to emphasize this point has been the U.S.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:36:19):
president,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:36:20):
Donald J. Trump, who has,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:36:23):
again, stressed that,
(00:36:24):
you know,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:36:24):
we were the ones who did all the heavy lifting.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:36:28):
Well, of course, again, it's an allied effort.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:36:30):
But I also want to stress that this is not just Trump who's saying this.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:36:35):
I mean, there has long been in the American culture
Pietro Sharkarian (00:36:38):
This idea of that we won World War II, that it was all us and so on and so forth.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:36:43):
It's the kind of the Hollywood version of events, right?
Pietro Sharkarian (00:36:47):
The Saving Private Ryan version of events that that,
(00:36:50):
you know,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:36:50):
we were the ones who,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:36:52):
you know,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:36:53):
won the war effectively.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:36:54):
Well, of course, the U.S.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:36:55):
did.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:36:56):
You know, the U.S.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:36:58):
did have a major contribution to the war, especially when we look at the Pacific theater.
(00:37:03):
In fact,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:37:03):
the Pacific theater for most Americans is even more important than the European theater,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:37:08):
actually.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:37:10):
And even on my maternal side, my own...
Pietro Sharkarian (00:37:14):
Grandfather was in the war, as a matter of fact.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:37:16):
So I everybody knows how important the Pacific theater is to, you know, World War Two.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:37:24):
But from the American point of view, but America did not win the war single handedly.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:37:29):
This is part, again, of this kind of national mythology.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:37:32):
And Americans didn't used to think this way, by the way.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:37:34):
If you go back to look at the newspapers in the 40s,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:37:38):
if you look at,
(00:37:39):
I don't know,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:37:39):
if you look at the New York Times,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:37:42):
if you look at what's being reported in Los Angeles or in Cleveland or Chicago or
Pietro Sharkarian (00:37:46):
any of these cities,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:37:47):
they were reporting actively on the Eastern Front that at the time in the 40s,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:37:53):
Americans recognized that the Russians,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:37:56):
the Soviets,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:37:57):
that they were the ones doing,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:37:59):
you know,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:38:00):
that they were the ones sacrificing massively in the war in Europe.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:38:04):
So that was actually acknowledged actually at that time.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:38:06):
But then because of the Cold War geopolitics,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:38:08):
and now today we have our kind of new Cold War geopolitics,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:38:11):
that that's not so convenient to talk about.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:38:14):
But in those days, in the 40s, you know, that was a readily acknowledged fact.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:38:20):
Yeah, I mean, to me, again,
Hovik Manucharyan (00:38:22):
I fully respect the contributions of everyone,
Hovik Manucharyan (00:38:28):
but it would be a denial of my own past.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:38:31):
And as an Armenian, if I engage in historical revisionism myself,
Hovik Manucharyan (00:38:38):
and I think that you know one thing that I would advocate to our listeners is to
Hovik Manucharyan (00:38:42):
you know uh be mindful of that when you uh hear media reports about uh the
Hovik Manucharyan (00:38:49):
contributions of one country I mean no single country I would say uh was decisive
Hovik Manucharyan (00:38:54):
they were all um
Hovik Manucharyan (00:38:58):
It was truly an allied victory.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:38:59):
And also think about the long-term political impact, too.
(00:39:02):
I mean,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:39:02):
the foundation of the United Nations,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:39:03):
as imperfect as that is,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:39:05):
at least we have something.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:39:06):
At least we have some basis for, you know, I guess, attempting to enforce international law.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:39:13):
So, absolutely.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:39:14):
I think that,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:39:15):
you know,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:39:16):
when we think about the war and think about the impact,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:39:18):
it was enormous,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:39:20):
even to this day.
Asbed Bedrossian (00:39:23):
Pietro, you mentioned that Xi was having a very good time at the Victory Parade in Moscow.
Asbed Bedrossian (00:39:28):
What did you think of Nikol Pashinyan?
Pietro Sharkarian (00:39:31):
Nikol Pashinyan, it was interesting because he kind of seemed like he was out of it.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:39:36):
He seemed like he wasn't there.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:39:38):
I mean, physically he was there, but mentally he wasn't there.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:39:42):
There was actually some controversy because there was a moment,
(00:39:45):
I believe,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:39:45):
when the Azerbaijani contingent came by,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:39:50):
and it looked like he was pleased with what he saw,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:39:53):
which was kind of interesting,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:39:56):
that an Armenian leader who didn't even invite
Pietro Sharkarian (00:39:59):
an Armenian contingent,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:40:00):
was kind of pleased to see what Aliyev had brought,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:40:03):
even though Aliyev himself was not there.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:40:07):
But he just was not with it, as far as I could observe.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:40:12):
And it was interesting that he was seated next to Lukashenko,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:40:15):
by the way, because,
(00:40:16):
you know,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:40:16):
Lukashenko doesn't exactly have the highest opinion of Nikol Pashinyan.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:40:18):
That was very funny, by the way.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:40:20):
Yeah.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:40:21):
And actually, when you look at the pictures, he looked like he was like isolated.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:40:24):
Yeah.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:40:25):
So you would see like,
(00:40:26):
you know,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:40:26):
Putin talking with Lukashenko and Pashinyan looked like he was completely out of it.
Asbed Bedrossian (00:40:30):
He looked isolated and he looked on the other side of a guy who was double his size
Asbed Bedrossian (00:40:34):
and he just looked...
Asbed Bedrossian (00:40:35):
Yeah,
(00:40:36):
I know.
Asbed Bedrossian (00:40:36):
He just looked... Hovik, what did you think?
Hovik Manucharyan (00:40:39):
I mean,
Hovik Manucharyan (00:40:40):
it would be funny if it wasn't so sad that the Armenian leader is the one that
Hovik Manucharyan (00:40:44):
we're talking about.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:40:45):
But what can we say?
Pietro Sharkarian (00:40:47):
One redeeming fact is that he actually came.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:40:50):
That the 80th anniversary of the Great Patriotic War is not an anniversary that
Pietro Sharkarian (00:40:56):
happens all the time.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:40:57):
This is,
(00:40:58):
you know,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:40:58):
especially because the veterans are no longer going to be there after some point.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:41:03):
I mean, we're having fewer with each passing anniversary.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:41:06):
There are fewer and fewer veterans who are witnessing it.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:41:09):
The 80th anniversary is enormously important.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:41:13):
And the fact that we had Armenian veterans there, that I thought was immensely significant.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:41:18):
And the fact that the Armenian leader showed up,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:41:20):
even though he's not our favorite Armenian leader,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:41:23):
and he's not,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:41:25):
by any stretch of the imagination,
Pietro Sharkarian (00:41:26):
a great Armenian leader.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:41:28):
Still, Armenia was represented, which I think was rather important.
Asbed Bedrossian (00:41:34):
Thank you, Pietro, for coming on the show and putting all this in context of history.
Asbed Bedrossian (00:41:39):
Thanks so much.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:41:40):
Thank you, Asbed.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:41:41):
Thank you, Hovik.
Pietro Sharkarian (00:41:42):
It's a pleasure, as always, to join you on your program.
Asbed Bedrossian (00:41:46):
Okay, well, that's our show today.
Asbed Bedrossian (00:41:48):
This episode was recorded on May 13, 2025.
Asbed Bedrossian (00:41:53):
We have been talking with Dr.
(00:41:55):
Pietro Shakarian,
Asbed Bedrossian (00:41:55):
who is a historian of Russia and the Soviet Union and a postdoctoral fellow at the
Asbed Bedrossian (00:42:00):
Center for Historical Research at the National Research University Higher School of
Asbed Bedrossian (00:42:05):
Economics in St.
Asbed Bedrossian (00:42:06):
Petersburg, Russia.
Asbed Bedrossian (00:42:08):
For more information on all of us in this episode,
Asbed Bedrossian (00:42:10):
check out our show notes,
Asbed Bedrossian (00:42:12):
podcasts.groong.org slash episode number.
Asbed Bedrossian (00:42:15):
Hovik is also going to put his information and pictures of his family who have
Asbed Bedrossian (00:42:21):
participated in the World
Asbed Bedrossian (00:42:23):
war.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:42:26):
Well, thank you for listening, folks.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:42:28):
Don't forget to like, share, comment on our content to help us reach more people.
(00:42:34):
Thank you very much.
Asbed Bedrossian (00:42:34):
Absolutely.
Asbed Bedrossian (00:42:35):
I'm Asbed Bedrossian.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:42:37):
And I'm Hovik Manucharyan.
Hovik Manucharyan (00:42:39):
We'll talk to you soon.
Asbed Bedrossian (00:42:40):
Bye-bye.
Asbed Bedrossian (00:42:41):
Bye-bye.
