Armenian News Network - Groong: Week In Review Podcast

Robert Amsterdam - In Our Own Way: The Samvel Karapetyan Case | Ep 468, Sep 4, 2025

• Armenian News Network / Groong • Episode 468

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Conversations on Groong - September 4, 2025

In this episode of Conversations on Groong, we speak with international human rights lawyer Robert Amsterdam about the arrest and pre-trial detention of Armenian businessman and Church benefactor Samvel Karapetyan. We explore how Armenia’s courts are being used in a campaign of lawfare targeting political opponents and the Armenian Apostolic Church, following growing tensions between Prime Minister Nikol Pashinyan’s government and religious leaders. Amsterdam discusses the legal inconsistencies, the weaponization of pre-trial detention, and how these actions violate international norms. We also examine the broader consequences for Armenia’s legal system, religious freedom, and international reputation.

Topic: 

  • Arrest of Samvel Karapetyan
  • Pre-trial detention practices
  • Lawfare and double standards
  • Armenia’s global consequences

Guest: Robert Amsterdam

Hosts: 

  • Hovik Manucharyan
  • Asbed Bedrossian

Episode 468 | Recorded: September 4, 2025

SHOW NOTES: https://podcasts.groong.org/468

VIDEO: https://youtu.be/0aa4tvYVL7M

#Lawfare #Armenia #ReligiousFreedom #PoliticalPrisoners #SamvelKarapetyan


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Asbed (00:00:06):

Hello and welcome to this Conversations on Groong episode.

Asbed (00:00:10):

In May, Nikol Pashinyan and Anna Hakobyan escalated what many saw as a cultural and even

Asbed (00:00:16):

religious offensive against the Armenian Apostolic Church,

Asbed (00:00:19):

with Pashinyan openly calling for the Catholicos to be replaced.

Asbed (00:00:23):

Their attacks turned more vulgar by the day and dominated the Armenian media.

Asbed (00:00:28):

When billionaire businessman,

Asbed (00:00:30):

philanthropist, and church benefactor Samvel Karapetyan spoke up in defense of the church,

Asbed (00:00:35):

he was accused of calling for a seizure of power and was swiftly arrested.

Asbed (00:00:41):

His case has since become one of the most high profile legal battles in Armenia.

Asbed (00:00:45):

Today, we're joined by Karapetyan's attorney,

Asbed (00:00:48):

Robert Amsterdam,

Asbed (00:00:49):

world renowned for defending political prisoners,

Asbed (00:00:52):

business leaders,

Asbed (00:00:53):

and religious institutions around the globe.

Asbed (00:00:55):

And with him,

Asbed (00:00:56):

we're going to examine the charges,

Asbed (00:00:58):

the use of pretrial detention in Armenia,

Asbed (00:01:01):

and how it stacks up against international norms and the wider challenges of

Asbed (00:01:04):

defending Karapetyan's rights in today's legal and political climate.

Hovik (00:01:09):

Before we dive in,

Hovik (00:01:11):

and this is going to be a really interesting show,

Hovik (00:01:13):

folks,

Hovik (00:01:14):

I want to offer a quick note.

Hovik (00:01:15):

You listen to us,

Hovik (00:01:16):

so we assume that you trust us to bring you quality,

Hovik (00:01:19):

fact-based content on Armenia and the region.

Hovik (00:01:22):

Yes,

Hovik (00:01:23):

in fact, we're the only English language podcast consistently producing quality content,

Hovik (00:01:27):

such as the one that you're seeing right now,

Hovik (00:01:30):

in a media space dominated by foreign aid and foreign agenda.

Hovik (00:01:34):

There is no other way to say this, folks.

Hovik (00:01:36):

We are under attack, so we appreciate any support that you give us.

Hovik (00:01:40):

And one way that we push back against the regime and the forces that are supporting

Hovik (00:01:44):

this regime is by exposing their use of lawfare.

Hovik (00:01:48):

When authoritarian regimes weaponize the courts to silence opponents,

Hovik (00:01:52):

and how this undermines rights and freedoms and degrades democracy.

Hovik (00:01:56):

So if you want to help us shine the light on these abuses,

Hovik (00:02:00):

then support us by going to podcasts.groong.org / donate.

Hovik (00:02:03):

And if you can't give, you can still help.

Hovik (00:02:06):

Like, share, and comment on this and all of our shows like there's no tomorrow.

Hovik (00:02:11):

All right, on to our program.

Asbed (00:02:13):

Robert Amsterdam, welcome to the Groong Podcast.

Amsterdam (00:02:16):

Thank you so much for having me.

Asbed (00:02:19):

So, Mr. Amsterdam,

Asbed (00:02:20):

as this is your first time on our podcast,

Asbed (00:02:21):

can you tell our listeners a little bit about your work and how you ended up

Asbed (00:02:25):

representing prominent political prisoners,

Asbed (00:02:28):

business leaders,

Asbed (00:02:29):

religious institutions around the world,

Asbed (00:02:31):

and now,

Asbed (00:02:32):

of course, in Armenia with the case of Samvel Karapetyan?

Amsterdam (00:02:36):

Well, to be frank, it's been a very long history.

Amsterdam (00:02:40):

We've been in this field of, I call it political litigation, for almost 50 years.

Amsterdam (00:02:49):

I have spent my life as a student of this region.

Amsterdam (00:02:55):

My first trip to Moscow in the early 70s,

Amsterdam (00:03:00):

I had a degree in Soviet studies,

Amsterdam (00:03:04):

followed by a series of law degrees,

Amsterdam (00:03:10):

and have been active in the region since that time.

Amsterdam (00:03:15):

I became involved in a series of political cases in Russia,

Amsterdam (00:03:21):

now acting in Ukraine against the government for their persecution of the Ukrainian

Amsterdam (00:03:28):

Orthodox Church.

Amsterdam (00:03:31):

and very privileged to represent this incredible individual in Armenia,

Amsterdam (00:03:42):

a man whose commitment to God and his people.

Amsterdam (00:03:49):

It is so shocking to me to see someone like this, who led the kind of life he's led,

Amsterdam (00:03:57):

be imprisoned so brutally.

Amsterdam (00:04:00):

To be frank,

Amsterdam (00:04:02):

as someone who is a believer in God and in the importance of religion,

Amsterdam (00:04:14):

jailing someone,

Amsterdam (00:04:16):

a pretextual jailing of this man,

Amsterdam (00:04:21):

makes him a prisoner of conscience.

Amsterdam (00:04:24):

And the idea that Armenia would be holding prisoners of conscience is outrageous.

Amsterdam (00:04:29):

And it's something that needs to be understood in the West,

Amsterdam (00:04:34):

that we have in Armenia a country that is holding not only political prisoners,

Amsterdam (00:04:39):

but prisoners of conscience.

Amsterdam (00:04:41):

And we certainly will be taking that up with Amnesty and other organizations,

Amsterdam (00:04:46):

that people's spiritual beliefs are being trampled on in this way as completely

Amsterdam (00:04:53):

just totally unacceptable in the 21st century.

Asbed (00:04:57):

So to the distant or casual observer,

Asbed (00:05:00):

there are so many parties involved and it looks so complex.

Asbed (00:05:03):

Can you clarify whom you represent exactly?

Asbed (00:05:06):

Do you exclusively represent Mr. Karapetyan or also other detainees and maybe the church?

Asbed (00:05:12):

And what's your mandate specifically?

Amsterdam (00:05:15):

Specifically, I am retained by Mr. Karapetyan.

Amsterdam (00:05:20):

But I will say that you cannot be retained by this man without,

Amsterdam (00:05:26):

in some way,

Amsterdam (00:05:27):

representing the church and advocating for the church.

Amsterdam (00:05:29):

It's his life.

Amsterdam (00:05:30):

So I fully intend to advocate for the church and to protect the church,

Amsterdam (00:05:39):

an institution in which this man and his family is dedicated so much.

Amsterdam (00:05:44):

And let's be very blunt, he is in jail because of the church, because of the church.

Amsterdam (00:05:51):

There is nothing about this that isn't connected to his belief in God.

Amsterdam (00:05:56):

So, as I said, I feel deeply privileged to represent this man.

Amsterdam (00:06:03):

And as you may be aware,

Amsterdam (00:06:05):

I've been deeply privileged to represent many,

Amsterdam (00:06:08):

many men of tremendous quality

Amsterdam (00:06:13):

who have been political prisoners.

Hovik (00:06:18):

Mr. Amsterdam, so let's actually dive into that then.

Hovik (00:06:22):

On June 18, Mr. Karapetyan,

Hovik (00:06:25):

As you know,

Hovik (00:06:26):

to remind our listeners,

Hovik (00:06:27):

he's one of the probably most well-known benefactors and supporters of the Armenian

Hovik (00:06:33):

church and Armenia in general since maybe Kerkorian or even on par with Kerkorian.

Hovik (00:06:38):

So Mr. Karapetyan voiced his support for the church and he was arrested.

Hovik (00:06:43):

Not long after that,

Hovik (00:06:44):

Archbishop Bagrat Galstanyan and Archbishop Mikayel Ajabahyan were also detained.

Hovik (00:06:51):

Many dozens of their supporters are also in detention right now.

Hovik (00:06:55):

Now, Karapetyan's words were simple.

Hovik (00:06:58):

I mean, the words were simple, but we're trying to understand the reasoning of the government.

Hovik (00:07:03):

And I want to quote the sentences that got him into trouble with the government.

Hovik (00:07:09):

He said,

Hovik (00:07:10):

I have always stood by the church and the people and will personally take part in

Hovik (00:07:15):

defending our values.

Hovik (00:07:17):

If the politicians fail, then we will participate in all this in our own way.

Hovik (00:07:23):

Now, Karapetyan has since been in pretrial detention, so that's more than two months now.

Hovik (00:07:29):

And also,

Hovik (00:07:30):

you know,

Hovik (00:07:31):

this raises questions about the Institute of Pretrial Detention as well,

Hovik (00:07:34):

you know,

Hovik (00:07:35):

how the Armenian government is using it,

Hovik (00:07:37):

international norms related to this.

Hovik (00:07:39):

So we want to talk about all of this.

Hovik (00:07:40):

But to start off with,

Hovik (00:07:42):

can you tell us the details about the crimes that your client is accused of and

Hovik (00:07:47):

what was in those words that he said that could be viewed as criminal?

Amsterdam (00:07:53):

Well, you know, let's be very clear.

Amsterdam (00:07:57):

I don't want to discuss this as a criminal charge,

Amsterdam (00:08:00):

because I am not going to give it the presumption of regularity.

Amsterdam (00:08:05):

There is absolutely nothing criminal in what this man said.

Amsterdam (00:08:10):

There is not a hint of criminality.

Amsterdam (00:08:14):

He was speaking of

Amsterdam (00:08:17):

the spirit,

Amsterdam (00:08:18):

he was speaking of the people,

Amsterdam (00:08:20):

there was nothing violent,

Amsterdam (00:08:21):

there was nothing about overthrowing the government.

Amsterdam (00:08:24):

It appears some newspapers used an incorrect translation of his language to turn it

Amsterdam (00:08:35):

into the word intervention,

Amsterdam (00:08:37):

which was never what he said.

Amsterdam (00:08:40):

And we believe some of that misinterpreted language may have gotten to the Prime Minister,

Amsterdam (00:08:47):

to the general prosecutor, who very unusually seems to have preferred the charges themselves.

Amsterdam (00:08:56):

I would only say that in a political case, you actually lend credibility

Amsterdam (00:09:06):

when you start talking about bogus charges.

Amsterdam (00:09:09):

I am not defending a man who's charged with a criminal offense.

Amsterdam (00:09:13):

I am defending a prisoner of conscience who the government fears.

Amsterdam (00:09:19):

He is in jail because they are afraid of him.

Amsterdam (00:09:23):

They are afraid of him out of jail.

Amsterdam (00:09:26):

This is the result of the failure of this government.

Amsterdam (00:09:32):

This is a result of the failure in the war of the failure of their government.

Amsterdam (00:09:37):

That's what this is.

Amsterdam (00:09:38):

So let's not confuse us.

Amsterdam (00:09:40):

Let's not give any respect to these bogus charges and these proceedings that bear

Amsterdam (00:09:46):

no resemblance to rule of law.

Hovik (00:09:49):

Fair enough, fair enough.

Hovik (00:09:50):

But I think that,

Hovik (00:09:51):

you know,

Hovik (00:09:52):

without giving credence to the charges,

Hovik (00:09:53):

which,

Hovik (00:09:54):

you know, I think we should be observers,

Hovik (00:09:57):

you know,

Hovik (00:09:58):

who are following this may actually fall prey to that because,

Hovik (00:10:03):

you know,

Hovik (00:10:04):

At least based on the public charges, he's accused of state overthrow.

Hovik (00:10:09):

And just for also for full transparency,

Hovik (00:10:13):

I believe they also piled on additional charges related to financial crimes.

Hovik (00:10:19):

But that's humorous.

Amsterdam (00:10:24):

because those charges do not relate to any company or individual that's connected

Amsterdam (00:10:31):

from a business standpoint to him.

Amsterdam (00:10:34):

Those are separate businesses that are not owned or controlled by Karapetyan.

Amsterdam (00:10:39):

And that's why I'm saying it's disrespectful for me to try to sit here and lend credence.

Amsterdam (00:10:49):

In the world today,

Amsterdam (00:10:51):

Weak governments,

Amsterdam (00:10:52):

governments that are insecure,

Amsterdam (00:10:55):

use the criminal system to attempt to stigmatize their opponents.

Amsterdam (00:11:03):

In this case, Mike Plank's not even an opponent of the government.

Amsterdam (00:11:08):

He is a proponent of the church.

Amsterdam (00:11:12):

He is a proponent of God Almighty.

Amsterdam (00:11:15):

That's his crime.

Amsterdam (00:11:18):

You have this insanity and these completely bogus charges,

Amsterdam (00:11:23):

and we have great local counsel who will take you through all of the detail of why

Amsterdam (00:11:30):

these charges make no sense,

Amsterdam (00:11:32):

and in fact,

Amsterdam (00:11:33):

do not even relate to this individual.

Amsterdam (00:11:38):

The financial stuff is just icing on the cake of garbage that the government has put together.

Amsterdam (00:11:48):

And again, I'll be honest with you, when I watch interviews of the prime minister,

Amsterdam (00:11:56):

I see him as he did a few days ago,

Amsterdam (00:11:58):

and we released a video on my ex account a few days ago where I played the video of

Amsterdam (00:12:06):

the Prime Minister after the government lost a case involving their attempt to gain

Amsterdam (00:12:15):

control of the electric company.

Amsterdam (00:12:18):

The Prime Minister says,

Amsterdam (00:12:20):

and indeed fired his head of legal,

Amsterdam (00:12:24):

because that poor gentleman wanted to actually adjourn to the law.

Amsterdam (00:12:28):

And the prime minister said, no, no, I'm the law.

Amsterdam (00:12:32):

I'm what matters.

Amsterdam (00:12:34):

If you disagree with me, leave the government.

Amsterdam (00:12:37):

I have no idea how he thinks in a post-Soviet state declaring yourself a dictator

Amsterdam (00:12:46):

is attractive,

Amsterdam (00:12:47):

and maybe that speaks to a man whose popularity is hovering perhaps below double

Amsterdam (00:12:54):

digits.

Hovik (00:12:55):

Sadly,

Hovik (00:12:57):

Mr. Karapetyan is not the only detainee based on conscience,

Hovik (00:13:03):

based on political views in Armenia.

Hovik (00:13:07):

We recently talked on our podcast with Mr.

Hovik (00:13:09):

Armen Ashotyan,

Hovik (00:13:10):

who was vice president of the Republican Party,

Hovik (00:13:13):

the second largest opposition party.

Hovik (00:13:15):

And he was also similarly,

Hovik (00:13:17):

not similarly, I would say,

Hovik (00:13:18):

but he was also held in pretrial detention

Hovik (00:13:24):

that a process that is meant to,

Hovik (00:13:27):

I guess, confine dangerous criminals until their judgment is,

Hovik (00:13:31):

you know, until they receive a judgment.

Hovik (00:13:33):

But this is a process that has to be renewed every two months.

Hovik (00:13:36):

And a judge in Armenia dutifully every two months rubber stamped this order.

Hovik (00:13:42):

And I'm just thinking about Mr.

Hovik (00:13:44):

Karapetyan,

Hovik (00:13:45):

and I guess his initial two-month pretrial detention has been extended already

Hovik (00:13:51):

once. I'm just wondering how long he will be held in detention,

Hovik (00:13:54):

and also how consistent is this practice of pretrial detention based on what you've

Hovik (00:13:58):

seen in Russia and Ukraine,

Hovik (00:14:01):

and also how consistent is this in comparison with international norms throughout

Hovik (00:14:07):

the rest of the world?

Amsterdam (00:14:08):

Well, let's be clear.

Amsterdam (00:14:09):

Russia and Ukraine do not follow international norm.

Amsterdam (00:14:13):

The detention of Mr. Carapacchian is a violation of his rights under the European Convention.

Amsterdam (00:14:20):

Mr. Carapacchian is not a dangerous offender.

Amsterdam (00:14:24):

In fact, the present government introduced legislation to allow for house arrest.

Amsterdam (00:14:30):

As a man with no criminal record, there's absolutely no basis for him being kept in detention.

Amsterdam (00:14:37):

There's no legal basis for it.

Amsterdam (00:14:40):

So it does not in any way comply with international norms.

Amsterdam (00:14:44):

It complies with Russian norms.

Amsterdam (00:14:48):

Mr. Pashinyan seems to be copying the practices of Vladimir Putin in terms of how to

Amsterdam (00:14:56):

deal with people you perceive as opponents.

Amsterdam (00:14:59):

But I have to say Vladimir Putin has not made the church in his country the enemy.

Amsterdam (00:15:06):

Many argue he's made the church an instrument of his power as has occurred in

Amsterdam (00:15:12):

Tsarist times,

Amsterdam (00:15:14):

but no one would say that he would ever speak of the church in the type of

Amsterdam (00:15:18):

disrespectful,

Amsterdam (00:15:21):

blasphemous manner that the present leader of the government is speaking.

Asbed (00:15:28):

Mr. Amsterdam,

Asbed (00:15:29):

proceedings against the church leaders like the two archbishops that Hovig

Asbed (00:15:34):

mentioned earlier,

Asbed (00:15:35):

Mikhail Ajabahyan and Bagrat Galstanyan,

Asbed (00:15:38):

these were rushed into court while Samuel Karapetyan's case remains stalled in the

Asbed (00:15:44):

pre-investigation stage.

Asbed (00:15:46):

This uneven handling raises questions about consistency,

Asbed (00:15:49):

fairness,

Asbed (00:15:50):

and the broader environment in which you've had to defend his rights.

Asbed (00:15:54):

How would you compare the pace of Mr.

Asbed (00:15:55):

Karapetyan's case with the archbishops and why is there such a discrepancy?

Amsterdam (00:16:02):

Well, look, I want to be very careful.

Amsterdam (00:16:04):

I have met counsel for the archbishops,

Amsterdam (00:16:08):

very able lawyers in Armenia,

Amsterdam (00:16:11):

and I do not want to say anything that would in any way prejudice their cases.

Amsterdam (00:16:18):

I'm going to leave it for their counsel to speak.

Amsterdam (00:16:21):

I don't want to contrast cases.

Amsterdam (00:16:23):

Obviously,

Amsterdam (00:16:26):

under the law of Armenia,

Amsterdam (00:16:29):

there is both the constitution and there is the statutes governing the church-state

Amsterdam (00:16:35):

relationship.

Amsterdam (00:16:36):

There is no basis under the Armenian constitution for the government to intervene

Amsterdam (00:16:45):

in church affairs.

Amsterdam (00:16:47):

which is exactly what they're doing.

Amsterdam (00:16:51):

It is so embarrassingly clear that the Prime Minister has no understanding of what

Amsterdam (00:17:03):

the word apostolic means in the definition of the Church.

Amsterdam (00:17:12):

The Church is an apostolic Church.

Amsterdam (00:17:15):

The leadership of the Church

Amsterdam (00:17:18):

is apostolic,

Amsterdam (00:17:19):

which means it is firstly democratically and secondly connected to the earliest and

Amsterdam (00:17:27):

I would say the holiest of apostles who brought Christianity to Armenia in 301.

Amsterdam (00:17:34):

That is not a tradition that is violated by the present leader, Prime Minister of Armenia.

Amsterdam (00:17:46):

The presumptuousness of his behavior is so offensive and shocking that

Amsterdam (00:17:55):

I don't want to say it's almost without precedent,

Amsterdam (00:17:57):

because I'm sure there's some countries in Africa or something where this has

Amsterdam (00:18:00):

happened.

Amsterdam (00:18:02):

But the kind of language used by the prime minister, I've never seen.

Amsterdam (00:18:07):

I've been a lawyer for 45 years.

Amsterdam (00:18:10):

I've never seen a government official speak about men who have dedicated themselves

Amsterdam (00:18:16):

to God in this way before.

Hovik (00:18:20):

And of course, I think that we cannot disassociate this from the attack against church.

Hovik (00:18:24):

So let's talk about this,

Hovik (00:18:25):

because one of the most surreal aspects of this campaign is Pashinyan's attempt to

Hovik (00:18:31):

force the Catholicos of all Armenians to resign,

Hovik (00:18:36):

even saying that he would personally lead the protests at the Veharan,

Hovik (00:18:42):

which is the location of the residence of the chief pontiff,

Hovik (00:18:48):

to pressure him to resign.

Hovik (00:18:50):

Now, it may surprise our listeners,

Hovik (00:18:52):

but Armenia does have explicit guarantees in the constitution against separation of

Hovik (00:18:58):

church and state.

Hovik (00:18:59):

But as you've hinted at, this seems to be trampled upon.

Hovik (00:19:04):

So how do you see Armenia's handling of the situation?

Hovik (00:19:10):

and in light of the constitutional principles of the separation of church and

Hovik (00:19:13):

state,

Hovik (00:19:14):

and does that principle,

Hovik (00:19:16):

actually I'm really interested,

Hovik (00:19:18):

would that also mean that clergy have no right to speak out or speak up on issues

Hovik (00:19:25):

related to politics?

Amsterdam (00:19:27):

So let me just say that this is not my first brush with this issue.

Amsterdam (00:19:33):

I've worked many years in Africa, and as you know,

Amsterdam (00:19:38):

In my work,

Amsterdam (00:19:39):

I've often dealt with church figures who are often leaders of the opposition in

Amsterdam (00:19:46):

African countries,

Amsterdam (00:19:47):

for instance.

Amsterdam (00:19:49):

There is a complete asymmetry between the power of a government and the power of a church.

Amsterdam (00:19:59):

The separation of church and state is not the separation of equals.

Amsterdam (00:20:05):

It exists to protect the functioning of the church.

Amsterdam (00:20:09):

The functioning of the church is primarily spiritual,

Amsterdam (00:20:14):

but when circumstances on the ground are such as to affect the very existence of

Amsterdam (00:20:23):

the congregation of the church,

Amsterdam (00:20:27):

they must be led by their hearts and spirit to comment.

Amsterdam (00:20:32):

There is no eternal gag order on men of the cloth.

Amsterdam (00:20:41):

I feel very strongly that I have read the speech calling for the new,

Amsterdam (00:20:50):

the real Armenia that was put out by Pashinyan.

Amsterdam (00:20:54):

I mean, it is dribble.

Amsterdam (00:20:57):

It is dribble.

Amsterdam (00:20:59):

I thought it was an embarrassment for Armenia to read that document.

Amsterdam (00:21:05):

I would say that there's this...

Amsterdam (00:21:09):

complete imbalance of understanding that it is the church that requires protection

Amsterdam (00:21:15):

from political leaders like the present prime minister.

Amsterdam (00:21:21):

It is not the prime minister that requires the protection from the church.

Amsterdam (00:21:28):

The church's power emanates from the people.

Amsterdam (00:21:32):

It emanates from its history as a national church.

Amsterdam (00:21:36):

The Church of Armenia is a very powerful institution by its very nature.

Amsterdam (00:21:42):

It has, over history, maintained Armenian language and culture when Armenia was occupied.

Amsterdam (00:21:50):

To that extent, it has always had a form of a political role as the safe-keeper of Armenia.

Amsterdam (00:21:59):

You know, I'm a foreigner.

Amsterdam (00:22:01):

I am not Armenian.

Amsterdam (00:22:03):

And it's ridiculous that I seem to have a better understanding of the role of the

Amsterdam (00:22:08):

church than the present prime minister.

Amsterdam (00:22:11):

And that's all I can say.

Amsterdam (00:22:13):

I mean,

Amsterdam (00:22:14):

I've learned a lot representing the Ukrainian Orthodox Church and watching that

Amsterdam (00:22:19):

leader and his flock of merry men jail priests,

Amsterdam (00:22:23):

torture priests,

Amsterdam (00:22:25):

send priests to Russia who have no connection to Russia

Amsterdam (00:22:29):

and attempt to destroy a church because many of those who follow the church speak Russian.

Amsterdam (00:22:36):

I can tell you it is not a pretty picture in Ukraine,

Amsterdam (00:22:40):

and tragically it is not a pretty picture in Armenia.

Asbed (00:22:44):

Could it be said that the government is treading into unconstitutional territory

Asbed (00:22:48):

here in its attacks against the church?

Asbed (00:22:50):

And also,

Asbed (00:22:51):

does Armenia have the judicial system that can prevent such violations and within

Asbed (00:22:57):

which you can act expecting that the law is on your side?

Amsterdam (00:23:01):

So, number one, they are driving a truck through the constitution.

Amsterdam (00:23:10):

So let's be very clear.

Amsterdam (00:23:12):

They're not treading.

Amsterdam (00:23:13):

They're driving a truck through it.

Amsterdam (00:23:16):

And it will be, you know, I'm very sensitive as a lawyer in criticizing judges or the judiciary.

Amsterdam (00:23:25):

I'm American,

Amsterdam (00:23:26):

but I practice in the UK and Canada,

Amsterdam (00:23:29):

and we're much more diplomatic in what we say.

Amsterdam (00:23:34):

I want to pray for courageous judges to hold back this secular,

Amsterdam (00:23:42):

and to call it a secular tide is inappropriate.

Amsterdam (00:23:45):

This isn't secularism, because that implies a principled approach to this issue.

Amsterdam (00:23:53):

This is political whim.

Amsterdam (00:23:56):

This comes from what I perceive to be a bad place.

Amsterdam (00:24:04):

comes from the tragedy of Nagorno-Karabakh.

Amsterdam (00:24:09):

It comes from the ethnic cleansing that occurred there.

Amsterdam (00:24:16):

It comes from a tremendous sensitivity to avoiding accountability for what went on.

Amsterdam (00:24:24):

I see this as a grand deflection, a grand deflection from failure.

Amsterdam (00:24:31):

I don't know if you've ever seen the movie

Amsterdam (00:24:34):

Wag The Dog.

Amsterdam (00:24:35):

But this is in part what this is about.

Amsterdam (00:24:40):

I mean,

Amsterdam (00:24:41):

What a great way to avoid accountability for what's going on.

Amsterdam (00:24:48):

I mean, you know, in the United States, we have this issue right now of the Epstein papers.

Amsterdam (00:24:54):

I'm afraid we're going to invade 12 countries so that we can avoid that discussion.

Amsterdam (00:24:59):

Political leaders tend to do what they can to deflect.

Amsterdam (00:25:05):

And I think Armenia is a case study in deflection.

Amsterdam (00:25:08):

I said that

Amsterdam (00:25:09):

You know, everything I'm saying to you gentlemen,

Amsterdam (00:25:11):

I said on the streets of Yerevan just a few weeks ago.

Asbed (00:25:15):

Thank you for mentioning Nagorno-Karabakh because both Hovig and I have raw wounds

Asbed (00:25:20):

about that and feel exactly as you do about where some of this is coming from.

Asbed (00:25:25):

All the failures of this government and Pashinyan in Nagorno-Karabakh is where a lot

Asbed (00:25:30):

of this hostility is springing towards Armenians.

Asbed (00:25:34):

But Mr. Karapetyan's arrest is not only about one individual.

Asbed (00:25:37):

Of course,

Asbed (00:25:38):

the way that this case is being handled will shape how Armenia is perceived

Asbed (00:25:43):

internationally.

Asbed (00:25:44):

Continued repression of political opponents risks deep financial reputational

Asbed (00:25:49):

damage, weakening investor confidence and trust in Armenia's institutions.

Asbed (00:25:54):

At the same time,

Asbed (00:25:55):

We have been concerned with the silence of the Western governments and ambassadors,

Asbed (00:26:00):

despite clear evidence of democratic backsliding,

Asbed (00:26:04):

human rights abuses in Armenia,

Asbed (00:26:06):

systemic corruption.

Asbed (00:26:08):

This underscores a troubling complicity that shields the Pashinyan regime from accountability.

Asbed (00:26:14):

What do you see as the most significant risks to Armenia if Pashinyan's repressions

Asbed (00:26:20):

against political opponents continue unabated and he is not held accountable?

Amsterdam (00:26:25):

Do I have a few minutes where I can explain this?

Amsterdam (00:26:28):

Sure, of course.

Amsterdam (00:26:30):

Let me be very clear.

Amsterdam (00:26:31):

We're in a very tragic time in the world.

Amsterdam (00:26:36):

Western governments,

Amsterdam (00:26:38):

and I want to say something in favor of Donald Trump,

Amsterdam (00:26:44):

because he doesn't suffer from this.

Amsterdam (00:26:46):

Western governments have adopted a Russophobia.

Amsterdam (00:26:50):

That is frightening.

Amsterdam (00:26:52):

I'm a Jew,

Amsterdam (00:26:53):

and I am watching human beings who are Russian being treated in a horrific way

Amsterdam (00:27:00):

through sanctions and dehumanization in a way I never imagined the West could act.

Amsterdam (00:27:08):

When I defended Khodorkovsky in the streets of Moscow in 2004,

Amsterdam (00:27:12):

and I said he had been labeled an oligarch and he had been wrongly jailed,

Amsterdam (00:27:21):

On the streets of Moscow, I kept saying, this could not happen in the West.

Amsterdam (00:27:26):

Well, we are in the middle of a red scare.

Amsterdam (00:27:32):

No one wants to admit that these leaders like Zelensky or Pashinyan are in any way flawed.

Amsterdam (00:27:41):

because the goal is to attack Russia morning,

Amsterdam (00:27:45):

noon, and night,

Amsterdam (00:27:46):

dehumanize them,

Amsterdam (00:27:48):

attack them,

Amsterdam (00:27:49):

have our people in fear of them.

Amsterdam (00:27:53):

I don't know if you realize the great irony that the head of NATO is telling people

Amsterdam (00:27:58):

in the West to have three days' worth of food on hand,

Amsterdam (00:28:02):

and yet the Russian army is bogged down in Ukraine for three years,

Amsterdam (00:28:06):

and they can't capture Keith.

Amsterdam (00:28:10):

What a terrific

Amsterdam (00:28:13):

pile of you-know-what is being spread.

Amsterdam (00:28:17):

Now, I am an opponent of the Putin regime.

Amsterdam (00:28:20):

I was arrested in Moscow in 2005.

Amsterdam (00:28:23):

I was very lucky to come out in one piece.

Amsterdam (00:28:29):

I give no support to that government.

Amsterdam (00:28:32):

But what an overreaction.

Amsterdam (00:28:35):

that we are seeing in the West.

Amsterdam (00:28:38):

It is being used by opportunists like Pashinyan to hide his errors,

Amsterdam (00:28:44):

to hide from accountability,

Amsterdam (00:28:47):

and to deflect and use Russophobia as the rationale

Amsterdam (00:28:55):

to excuse grotesque misconduct.

Amsterdam (00:28:59):

We in the West have forgotten our values.

Amsterdam (00:29:02):

We have, I mean, in Estonia, in Ukraine, they are closing churches.

Amsterdam (00:29:09):

They are shutting down religions because these people may worship icons and speak Russian.

Amsterdam (00:29:18):

They're not spies.

Amsterdam (00:29:21):

They are honest to goodness

Amsterdam (00:29:25):

Ukrainian-Armenian patriots, but this phobia about Russia and the need to convert.

Amsterdam (00:29:35):

Armenia has a tremendous dependence on Russia.

Amsterdam (00:29:41):

It is not going to, from a real politics standpoint, change direction anytime soon.

Amsterdam (00:29:49):

But Pashinyan plays his music for a Western audience,

Amsterdam (00:29:54):

and we have dozens of innocents,

Amsterdam (00:30:00):

conscientious objectors wallowing in jail illegally,

Amsterdam (00:30:04):

wrongfully,

Amsterdam (00:30:06):

with the government hiding behind this insanity of Russophobia.

Amsterdam (00:30:13):

So I know I'm very diplomatic, but I think you get a sense of what I'm saying.

Hovik (00:30:18):

Definitely.

Hovik (00:30:20):

In this environment that you just eloquently described,

Hovik (00:30:25):

what legal and diplomatic measures remain if Mr.

Hovik (00:30:29):

Karapetyan continues to be detained by the regime in Armenia?

Hovik (00:30:32):

What are your next steps?

Amsterdam (00:30:34):

I've been doing this a long time.

Amsterdam (00:30:38):

I don't tell people my next steps because it's not good lawyering to do that.

Amsterdam (00:30:44):

We have next steps available.

Amsterdam (00:30:47):

We have a very large team of lawyers who all have to agree on the next steps,

Amsterdam (00:30:53):

and I hope that will be achieved soon.

Amsterdam (00:30:56):

This ABLE team achieved a notable success in the recent arbitration award, which was masterful.

Amsterdam (00:31:10):

I had nothing to do with it, so I can commend it.

Amsterdam (00:31:14):

But that arbitration decision is a warning to Armenia,

Amsterdam (00:31:20):

a warning to the international community.

Amsterdam (00:31:24):

I am one of the men who brought Yukos to the world's attention,

Amsterdam (00:31:31):

and we know what that did for Russian business.

Amsterdam (00:31:35):

Armenia certainly wants to avoid its own Yukos.

Amsterdam (00:31:40):

especially in a case like this,

Amsterdam (00:31:42):

where it is so obvious that they are attacking the electric company for no other

Amsterdam (00:31:51):

reason than the belief of Karapetyan in his God and his church.

Amsterdam (00:31:58):

How outrageous.

Amsterdam (00:32:00):

How clearly outrageous.

Asbed (00:32:03):

Mr. Amsterdam, thank you very much for making time with us.

Asbed (00:32:06):

We are interested in keeping up with you as the case goes on,

Asbed (00:32:10):

because we would love to see all prisoners of conscience and political prisoners in

Asbed (00:32:16):

Armenia freed.

Asbed (00:32:18):

We're with you on this.

Amsterdam (00:32:20):

Well,

Amsterdam (00:32:21):

I am actually attending a conference in Washington in the next week,

Amsterdam (00:32:27):

I think,

Amsterdam (00:32:28):

on this issue. So perhaps we'll see you there.

Asbed (00:32:33):

Thank you very much.

Asbed (00:32:34):

We'll talk to you soon.

Amsterdam (00:32:36):

Thank you.

Amsterdam (00:32:37):

Bye bye. Thank you.

Asbed (00:32:39):

Okay, well, that's our show today, and this episode was recorded on September 4, 2025.

Asbed (00:32:43):

We've been talking with Robert Amsterdam,

Asbed (00:32:47):

an international lawyer specializing in political cases and human rights.

Asbed (00:32:51):

He's the founder and managing partner of Amsterdam and Partners LLP,

Asbed (00:32:56):

and he has represented sovereign states,

Asbed (00:32:58):

political parties, politically exposed individuals,

Asbed (00:33:01):

and multinational organizations throughout his 45-year career with a particular

Asbed (00:33:06):

focus on emerging markets.

Asbed (00:33:08):

He currently represents Samvel Karapetyan,

Asbed (00:33:10):

a prominent Armenian entrepreneur and benefactor involved with the Armenian

Asbed (00:33:14):

Apostolic Church.

Asbed (00:33:16):

Before we go, Hovig has one small request from all of you all.

Hovik (00:33:20):

Folks, I'm just gonna ask you for one thing, which is Apple Podcasts is on my mind.

Hovik (00:33:27):

If you're already a subscriber, then please make sure to rate our show.

Hovik (00:33:31):

Please make sure to share it.

Hovik (00:33:33):

And if you're not a subscriber, then this is a good reminder for you to subscribe.

Hovik (00:33:37):

And that helps us tremendously.

Hovik (00:33:40):

as we try to rise above the fray, especially on Apple Podcasts.

Hovik (00:33:45):

It seems to be really dominated by foreign-funded media,

Hovik (00:33:50):

so you can't really get the truth out there,

Hovik (00:33:52):

it seems,

Hovik (00:33:54):

in comparison to other platforms like Spotify,

Hovik (00:33:56):

which we're having relatively better success on.

Hovik (00:34:00):

So we really appreciate your support.

Hovik (00:34:02):

Please consider doing this.

Hovik (00:34:03):

Again, Apple Podcasts is the goal of the day.

Hovik (00:34:06):

Thank you very much.

Asbed (00:34:08):

Yep. And for more information on all of us,

Asbed (00:34:11):

including Mr. Amsterdam,

Asbed (00:34:12):

you can go to the show notes for this episode,

Asbed (00:34:15):

podcasts.groong.org / episode number.

Asbed (00:34:19):

Who knows what number it will be because we're recording multiple shows and one

Asbed (00:34:23):

will get out before the other.

Asbed (00:34:24):

So just look up the episode number when you're listening to this one,

Asbed (00:34:29):

for example, in the videos and just slash episode number.

Asbed (00:34:33):

Okay. That's it for today.

Asbed (00:34:34):

I'm Asbed Bedrossian in Los Angeles.

Hovik (00:34:37):

And I'm Hovik Manucharyan, normally in Yerevan, but visiting Asbed again.

Hovik (00:34:42):

To my great pleasure.

Hovik (00:34:44):

We actually haven't seen each other yet, but hopefully we'll meet for coffee one of these days.

Hovik (00:34:49):

Anyway, please find us on social media and follow us everywhere you get your Armenian news.

Hovik (00:34:53):

The links are in the show notes.

Hovik (00:34:55):

Thanks for listening.

Hovik (00:34:56):

We'll talk to you soon.

Hovik (00:34:57):

Bye-bye.

People on this episode

Head Shot

Asbed Bedrossian

Co-host
Head Shot

Hovik Manucharyan

Co-host
Head Shot

Robert Amsterdam

Guest

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