Armenian News Network - Groong: Week In Review Podcast

Archil Sikharulidze - Georgian Municipal Elections 2025 | Ep 475, Sep 30, 2025

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Georgian Municipal Elections 2025

Topics

  • Municipal Elections & Tbilisi Politics
  • Foreign Agent Law, One Year Later
  • Georgian Perspectives on TRIPP


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Episode 475 | Recorded: September 28, 2025

https://podcasts.groong.org/475


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Asbed (00:00:06):

Hello, everyone, and welcome to this Conversations on Groong episode.

Asbed (00:00:09):

Thanks for tuning in, everyone.

Asbed (00:00:11):

Dr.

Asbed (00:00:12):

Archil Sikharulidze joins us today to discuss next week's upcoming October

Asbed (00:00:16):

municipal elections in Georgia.

Asbed (00:00:18):

Archil is the founder of the g Foundation in Tbilisi,

Asbed (00:00:22):

and he's a specialist in international relations focusing on Russia,

Asbed (00:00:25):

Georgia,

Asbed (00:00:26):

and the region.

Asbed (00:00:28):

Dr. Sikharulidze, welcome to the Groong podcast.

Archil (00:00:31):

Thanks for having me again, Asbed and Hovik.

Archil (00:00:33):

Nice to meet you.

Archil (00:00:35):

Welcome, Archie, welcome.

Asbed (00:00:37):

So next Saturday, October 4, is the day of the Georgian municipal elections.

Asbed (00:00:41):

And over the past year,

Asbed (00:00:43):

the ruling party,

Asbed (00:00:44):

Georgian Dream,

Asbed (00:00:45):

has consolidated its power in the country.

Asbed (00:00:48):

And I have to say, it's been rather quiet as the elections approach.

Asbed (00:00:52):

A recent nationwide poll by GORBI found that Georgian Dream enjoys 65.9% support.

Asbed (00:00:58):

And this is a higher result than the pre-election polls a year ago.

Asbed (00:01:02):

Last time,

Asbed (00:01:03):

if our listeners recall,

Asbed (00:01:05):

the opposition had organized mass protests,

Asbed (00:01:07):

improvised explosive devices.

Asbed (00:01:09):

It was a very messy election season.

Asbed (00:01:12):

Now, we understand that these elections are municipal elections and maybe the stakes are

Asbed (00:01:16):

not so high as they would be in parliamentary elections.

Asbed (00:01:19):

So,

Asbed (00:01:20):

Archil, can you give us the lay of the land,

Asbed (00:01:22):

what's going on in Georgia and what the stakes are for each side?

Archil (00:01:25):

No, what I would like to say, all quiet on the Western Front, but...

Asbed (00:01:33):

Don't jinx it.

Archil (00:01:34):

Yeah, okay.

Archil (00:01:36):

I'll be more precise.

Archil (00:01:38):

Well, first of all, thank you once again for inviting me.

Archil (00:01:42):

As you said perfectly, next Saturday we are going to have municipal elections.

Archil (00:01:46):

I think you a bit exaggerated the importance.

Archil (00:01:48):

You said a little bit.

Archil (00:01:50):

I will say that municipal elections in Georgia are usually...

Archil (00:01:55):

much much more dramatically less important than parliamentary elections and let me

Archil (00:02:01):

outline the reasons first of all the ruling party it doesn't matter that it is

Archil (00:02:07):

Georgian Dream or not it usually uh always wins in the regions because the ruling

Archil (00:02:14):

party always have much more income and much more resources

Archil (00:02:20):

That is why opposition in Georgia perfectly understands that it is incapable of

Archil (00:02:26):

defeating Georgian Dream in the regions.

Archil (00:02:29):

And you perfectly mentioned the parliamentary elections.

Archil (00:02:33):

And I would remind your audience that the opposition lost the regions even during

Archil (00:02:37):

the parliamentary elections totally,

Archil (00:02:40):

absolutely.

Archil (00:02:41):

They did nothing in the regions.

Archil (00:02:43):

So they tried hard to win

Archil (00:02:47):

big cities.

Archil (00:02:48):

And among the most important big cities in Georgia, there is capital Tbilisi and Batumi.

Archil (00:02:54):

And on this municipal election, there are only two questions that we should ask ourselves.

Archil (00:03:00):

Will candidates from Georgian Dream win with the first attempt in Tbilisi of

Archil (00:03:07):

Batumi,

Archil (00:03:08):

or will we need to have the second chance?

Archil (00:03:11):

You mean runoff elections?

Archil (00:03:13):

Yes, yes.

Archil (00:03:14):

By the end of the day, there are no questions that Georgian Dream is going to win.

Archil (00:03:19):

You mentioned GORBI.

Archil (00:03:20):

I should make some clarification.

Archil (00:03:24):

GORBI is being considered by opponents of Georgian Dream as pro-governmental.

Archil (00:03:31):

But even without GORBI in general, no one questions that Georgian Dream will win in the regions.

Archil (00:03:37):

It means that, as you said perfectly, they will fully occupy regional politics.

Archil (00:03:44):

And so the only question we ask...

Archil (00:03:48):

Will Kaha Kaladze,

Archil (00:03:51):

the head of the City Hall today,

Archil (00:03:53):

win again with the first attempt on Saturday or he will need second round to defeat

Archil (00:04:01):

his opponent?

Archil (00:04:02):

I don't know about Batumi, because Batumi is...

Archil (00:04:06):

once again even though it's big city but it's not as important political as Tbilisi

Archil (00:04:12):

so the only uh serious issue is about Tbilisi and how fast Georgian Dream will win

Archil (00:04:20):

one more issue that you will probably write is what opposition is going to do uh

Archil (00:04:27):

half of the position

Archil (00:04:29):

is outside of the political process in general.

Archil (00:04:33):

Since parliamentary elections, they refuse to join any political debate.

Archil (00:04:38):

They are outside.

Archil (00:04:40):

They're continuing street protests.

Archil (00:04:42):

They do not recognize any institution, any ministry, any agency.

Archil (00:04:49):

They do not recognize government.

Archil (00:04:51):

They do not recognize anyone.

Archil (00:04:53):

They do not recognize even police.

Archil (00:04:56):

So they refuse to join elections.

Archil (00:04:59):

In other parts,

Archil (00:05:01):

headed by Lelo,

Archil (00:05:05):

Lelo was created and founded by former bankers,

Archil (00:05:09):

and Gakharia for Georgia,

Archil (00:05:12):

who is headed by the former prime minister from Georgian Dream,

Archil (00:05:15):

Georgi Gakharia.

Archil (00:05:16):

These two parties in collaboration with Girchi,

Archil (00:05:19):

small party, but libertarian and very popular among the youngsters,

Archil (00:05:23):

they said that they will join this confrontation,

Archil (00:05:28):

I mean municipal elections.

Archil (00:05:30):

But they don't have resources.

Archil (00:05:33):

They like actual support.

Archil (00:05:35):

And because opposition is divided,

Archil (00:05:38):

that is why I do assume and majority of experts do assume that Georgian Dream will

Archil (00:05:43):

win easily.

Asbed (00:05:45):

One of the questions we had is if there are alliances forming between these parties

Asbed (00:05:50):

to the point where they are posing any kind of a challenge to Georgian Dream.

Asbed (00:05:55):

I mean, I was a little surprised when you mentioned runoff elections because I was not

Asbed (00:05:58):

expecting that.

Archil (00:06:00):

I think that the issues here are very sensitive when it comes to Tbilisi,

Archil (00:06:08):

because Tbilisi being the heart of the political process is always very critical to

Archil (00:06:14):

the current government,

Archil (00:06:16):

to the current leadership,

Archil (00:06:17):

as in any country,

Archil (00:06:18):

if I ask me.

Archil (00:06:20):

And because Tbilisi is actually divided,

Archil (00:06:23):

I would say, 50-50,

Archil (00:06:24):

maybe even 55 to 45 for the opposition.

Archil (00:06:29):

That is why it's very complicated to say who's going to win.

Archil (00:06:34):

I mean, Kakha Kaladze, the candidate From Georgia will by the end win.

Archil (00:06:39):

But how many rounds he will need?

Archil (00:06:41):

That's the question.

Archil (00:06:43):

On the one hand...

Archil (00:06:45):

I actually made a bet.

Archil (00:06:47):

I said that I think the candidate from Georgian Dream will win in the first round

Archil (00:06:53):

because I do assume and I think that citizens of Tbilisi are extremely tired of

Archil (00:06:59):

opposition.

Archil (00:07:00):

I think that citizens are extremely tired of from 25 to 100 people

Archil (00:07:06):

Like blocking Central Road every evening,

Archil (00:07:10):

shouting some nonsense,

Archil (00:07:11):

if you ask me,

Archil (00:07:13):

and saying that this is the way they're going to fight for years.

Archil (00:07:16):

And I do assume that maybe,

Archil (00:07:19):

I cannot say 100%,

Archil (00:07:21):

these people just go and vote for Kakha Kaladze,

Archil (00:07:23):

for Georgian Dream to finish this.

Archil (00:07:26):

to bring to the end the electoral process for the next four years and to let the

Archil (00:07:32):

government to finish all this mess and to give them a carte blanche to tell the

Archil (00:07:42):

government,

Archil (00:07:43):

please,

Archil (00:07:44):

handle all this mess and bring the stability that we are actually striving for.

Hovik (00:07:50):

Archil,

Hovik (00:07:51):

Kaka Kaladze,

Hovik (00:07:52):

you mentioned,

Hovik (00:07:53):

you know,

Hovik (00:07:54):

he's a popular footballer,

Hovik (00:07:55):

but also he has turned into a politician,

Hovik (00:07:59):

and he's a current incumbent,

Hovik (00:08:01):

and he represents the Georgian Dream.

Hovik (00:08:04):

Can you let us know more about his rule as a manager,

Hovik (00:08:08):

city manager,

Hovik (00:08:09):

and,

Hovik (00:08:10):

you know,

Hovik (00:08:11):

what else should we know about him?

Hovik (00:08:13):

Like, you know, what are his policies?

Hovik (00:08:16):

Are they, you know,

Hovik (00:08:19):

in line with Georgian Dream or does he have an independent streak?

Hovik (00:08:22):

How would you characterize it?

Archil (00:08:24):

I would say,

Archil (00:08:25):

I mean,

Archil (00:08:28):

the current prime minister,

Archil (00:08:30):

the chairman of the parliament and before Giorgi Gakharia retired and

Archil (00:08:37):

arose against the Georgian Dream.

Archil (00:08:39):

These four people were considered as the four horsemen of the Georgian Dream,

Archil (00:08:44):

the key actors that actually were the managing powers.

Archil (00:08:52):

Giorgi Gakharia left.

Archil (00:08:53):

He opposed the Georgian Dream.

Archil (00:08:56):

You know that Irakli Kobakhidze was appointed as a prime minister.

Archil (00:09:00):

He accumulated power.

Archil (00:09:03):

He is leading the government.

Archil (00:09:05):

And Kakha Kaladze is fully in accordance with the Georgian Dream policy.

Archil (00:09:11):

When it comes to his general approach to the city,

Archil (00:09:14):

I would say like 50-50,

Archil (00:09:15):

there are people who really love him and the people who really hate him,

Archil (00:09:20):

probably.

Archil (00:09:22):

And it's normal because in Tbilisi,

Archil (00:09:25):

if you do something,

Archil (00:09:26):

even if you're doing some good stuff,

Archil (00:09:28):

people are still angry.

Archil (00:09:30):

Any discomfort brings some dissatisfaction.

Archil (00:09:33):

And then you must prove that your actions were necessary to improve the quality of life.

Archil (00:09:41):

And one of the key approach of Kaladze was infrastructure.

Archil (00:09:46):

I mean, all his two terms, he spent time on building new infrastructure, building new gardens.

Archil (00:09:56):

repairing the old building the old like pipelines but and even though this was

Archil (00:10:03):

really good in general but some serious mistakes were made and because of this

Archil (00:10:09):

mistakes he is actually highly criticized so this is some double-edged sword on the

Archil (00:10:15):

one hand he is the first guy who actually came out to say that you know what the

Archil (00:10:21):

Tbilisi is very old

Archil (00:10:23):

it's we need to change everything we need to change pipelines we need to change the

Archil (00:10:28):

the subway we need to change but we don't have money so we are going to make do it

Archil (00:10:33):

step by step and then he was forced to come out and say that plus we don't have

Archil (00:10:39):

anyone to do this with their respective quality because when he started changing

Archil (00:10:44):

stuff

Archil (00:10:46):

one mistake another mistake some pipelines broke the roads fell and he was forced

Archil (00:10:52):

to come out and say that you know what we can all we cannot actually make some

Archil (00:10:58):

really good quality because we don't have guys who can do this so we need to on the

Archil (00:11:03):

one hand repair but on the other hand teach new generation of constructors to do a

Archil (00:11:09):

good stuff

Archil (00:11:11):

And because all his debts,

Archil (00:11:15):

all his actions are also leading to some mistakes,

Archil (00:11:20):

that's why he is extremely highly criticized.

Archil (00:11:23):

So people are saying,

Archil (00:11:24):

like,

Archil (00:11:25):

if you are repairing subway,

Archil (00:11:27):

why can't you repair subway in your respective way?

Archil (00:11:30):

Why can't you guarantee the quality?

Archil (00:11:34):

And that's why they consider Kakha Kaladze to be responsible that this is the result of corruption.

Archil (00:11:40):

And I do agree that City Hall has some issues with corruption.

Archil (00:11:45):

But on the other hand,

Archil (00:11:46):

I should use research that was actually conducted by NGOs in Georgia that actually

Archil (00:11:52):

said it's not only about corruption.

Archil (00:11:55):

The issue is much more fundamental.

Archil (00:11:57):

The education system in Georgia does not create new quality stuff.

Archil (00:12:04):

We don't have actual people who will repair all this stuff and we don't have money

Archil (00:12:08):

to invest in these people.

Archil (00:12:09):

Let's try Kakha Kaladze on the one hand,

Archil (00:12:11):

very active,

Archil (00:12:12):

but on the other hand,

Archil (00:12:14):

criticized for being not in quality in general.

Asbed (00:12:20):

Archil,

Asbed (00:12:21):

when these Gakharias, Kakha Kaladzes run as opposition figures and move away from Georgian

Asbed (00:12:27):

Dream,

Asbed (00:12:28):

is it policy differences that...

Asbed (00:12:32):

make them leave the party or is it personality differences?

Archil (00:12:35):

Well,

Archil (00:12:36):

it's very complicated to say because if you compare like the previous government

Archil (00:12:43):

members like United National Movement and Mikheil Saakashvili,

Archil (00:12:47):

he gathered very ideologically motivated people who were on the same vibe,

Archil (00:12:55):

if you can say.

Archil (00:12:57):

Plus they had

Archil (00:12:59):

And it's not a secret, some compromises on each other, some hidden materials.

Archil (00:13:04):

So he managed to keep these people in line with the policy, even when they lost power.

Archil (00:13:11):

So they are not very keen to rise, to speak about misunderstandings.

Archil (00:13:16):

They usually say that we disagree and they leave.

Archil (00:13:20):

That's why it's very complicated to find out what was the pattern.

Archil (00:13:24):

In this government,

Archil (00:13:25):

because they are not pursuing the same approach,

Archil (00:13:29):

you see lots of people leaving the government

Archil (00:13:32):

And then rising about the government and almost saying the same thing that the

Archil (00:13:38):

opposition is saying that actually makes them look very petty.

Archil (00:13:44):

Because when you were the member of the Georgian dream,

Archil (00:13:47):

you've been like illegally called pro-Russian.

Archil (00:13:51):

You said, we are not.

Archil (00:13:52):

Then you leave the government and you go government, the pro-Russian.

Archil (00:13:55):

So the government wasn't pro-Russian.

Archil (00:13:57):

While you were there, but once you left and you took money, now the government is pro-Russian.

Archil (00:14:04):

And it's very complicated to say what is the reason,

Archil (00:14:07):

whether it's the policy differences or it's like personal strive for more power,

Archil (00:14:13):

for more money,

Archil (00:14:15):

for more responsibility,

Archil (00:14:17):

because Georgian politicians are very arrogant.

Archil (00:14:20):

they would like to lead even though they don't have resources to lead they don't

Archil (00:14:25):

have charisma they don't have like knowledge in case with Giorgi Gakharia i can't

Archil (00:14:30):

say what people say so Gakharia personally the the drift started when uh

Archil (00:14:38):

nikonormalia the deputy of the united national movement uh broke the law he should

Archil (00:14:44):

have been detained

Archil (00:14:46):

And as far as I know, the Georgian Dream members pushed Gakharia to make this step.

Archil (00:14:53):

He refused and he said that I would rather retire than push for escalation of political life.

Archil (00:15:00):

So he left and then they knew he had arrested Nikanor Melia easily without some

Archil (00:15:08):

issues and he was detained and then freed later on.

Archil (00:15:12):

So Gakharia said that I left because I didn't agree that we should arrest

Archil (00:15:17):

politicians even if they are guilty.

Archil (00:15:20):

because this leads to radicalization, opposition, and internal division.

Archil (00:15:27):

But what Georgian Dream actually says,

Archil (00:15:29):

and they're pushing this,

Archil (00:15:31):

that he left because he was pushed by Kelly Degnan,

Archil (00:15:36):

the former ambassador of the United States in Tbilisi,

Archil (00:15:40):

who told him that this is not in the interest of the United States,

Archil (00:15:45):

that he should keep in mind that Washington is in charge.

Archil (00:15:52):

And Nikanor Melia is pursuing interests of the West.

Archil (00:15:58):

So arresting him means attacking the interests of the United States.

Archil (00:16:02):

And this is very clearly stated by Georgian Dream members that Gakharia was pushed,

Archil (00:16:08):

managed,

Archil (00:16:09):

manipulated by Western ambassadors.

Hovik (00:16:12):

Actually,

Hovik (00:16:13):

as you mentioned, you know,

Hovik (00:16:14):

Saakashvili and his UNM movement are boycotting the election.

Hovik (00:16:19):

This is interesting because there have been some voices in Armenia too,

Hovik (00:16:24):

like in the Armenian opposition,

Hovik (00:16:25):

saying that the opposition should fully disengage from any kind of sort of

Hovik (00:16:32):

participation and so-called recognition of the government,

Hovik (00:16:37):

you know, whether it's from the parliament,

Hovik (00:16:38):

they should lay down their mandates,

Hovik (00:16:40):

they should go to the streets.

Hovik (00:16:42):

What do you think of this strategy?

Hovik (00:16:46):

How is it working in Georgia?

Hovik (00:16:48):

And what else can you tell us about this boycott?

Hovik (00:16:53):

Where is this going to end eventually?

Archil (00:16:56):

Well,

Archil (00:16:57):

I think,

Archil (00:16:58):

from my experience,

Archil (00:16:59):

this is a dead end,

Archil (00:17:00):

because the policy of boycott is nothing new in Georgia.

Archil (00:17:05):

I would remind you that during elections in 2008,

Archil (00:17:10):

political position in Georgia didn't engage,

Archil (00:17:13):

they didn't recognize the results,

Archil (00:17:16):

plus they refused to join parliament,

Archil (00:17:19):

and we had

Archil (00:17:20):

one-party parliament headed by United National Movement,

Archil (00:17:24):

by Mikhail Saakashvili,

Archil (00:17:25):

and he ruled the country easily,

Archil (00:17:27):

one-handedly,

Archil (00:17:30):

with no opposition in general.

Archil (00:17:33):

And by the end of the day,

Archil (00:17:35):

Bidzina Ivanishvili appeared at some point,

Archil (00:17:39):

and he managed to unite all opposition,

Archil (00:17:42):

He managed to unite the critical electorate and voters,

Archil (00:17:47):

and they managed to defeat Saakashvili during the next elections in 2012 and 2013.

Archil (00:17:54):

So the Georgian example showed that if there is a well-built vertical system where

Archil (00:18:01):

the government is pretty strong,

Archil (00:18:03):

it is supported financially by the business,

Archil (00:18:06):

It holds a grip on the police and military.

Archil (00:18:10):

So you are not a rogue state in general.

Archil (00:18:13):

Then there is no sense of doing such stuff unless you're going to engage into civil

Archil (00:18:20):

confrontation.

Archil (00:18:21):

But for civil confrontation, you need a really, really strong support from civilians.

Archil (00:18:27):

And it means that your government is at least authoritarian regime, if not dictatorship.

Archil (00:18:33):

And because in Georgia we never had actually a dictatorship,

Archil (00:18:36):

we had during Saakashvili pretty strong authoritarian tendencies,

Archil (00:18:40):

this approach was useless.

Archil (00:18:42):

The same is happening nowadays.

Archil (00:18:43):

When opposition said we are not going to join the political process,

Archil (00:18:48):

I think they lost everything.

Archil (00:18:50):

The only hope is that Europe at some point will come.

Archil (00:18:54):

I don't know, maybe arrest, kill, or kidnap, or cancel the government.

Archil (00:19:00):

And they will just come easily.

Archil (00:19:02):

Because any rhetoric about engaging to a violent action is not supported in Georgia.

Archil (00:19:09):

And everyone understands that we already experienced civil war in Georgia.

Archil (00:19:14):

Every civil war in Georgia leads only to divisions and to only catastrophe.

Archil (00:19:19):

The same I would argue about Armenia.

Archil (00:19:21):

I mean, I'm not Armenian, but I've been to Armenia plenty of times.

Archil (00:19:25):

I research Armenia.

Archil (00:19:27):

You may not like Nikol Pashinyan,

Archil (00:19:29):

but the reason from my standpoint why he's in charge is because there's a huge

Archil (00:19:34):

amount of apathy among civilians in Armenia.

Archil (00:19:39):

As I said previously, voters are still processing the issue that they're experiencing.

Archil (00:19:45):

What opposition actually needs is a new leader who will unite them.

Archil (00:19:50):

who will prepare for elections and defeat Pashinyan in the elections.

Archil (00:19:56):

This will be,

Archil (00:19:57):

from my standpoint,

Archil (00:19:59):

from Georgian political environment development experience,

Archil (00:20:03):

this is the best option.

Hovik (00:20:04):

Can we borrow Ivanishvili for a couple of years?

Archil (00:20:11):

Actually, there is an issue with Ivanishvili.

Archil (00:20:14):

everything that made Ivanishvili very attractive now makes him very unattractive.

Archil (00:20:22):

So the problem with people like Ivanishvili is that at some point they were very

Archil (00:20:29):

popular,

Archil (00:20:30):

they brought peace,

Archil (00:20:31):

they brought the changes,

Archil (00:20:33):

but then their general wage,

Archil (00:20:37):

their richness,

Archil (00:20:40):

their abilities made them...

Archil (00:20:44):

target for criticism.

Archil (00:20:46):

And you can listen that if previously,

Archil (00:20:48):

like 10 years ago,

Archil (00:20:49):

no one actually challenged his status,

Archil (00:20:53):

his role.

Archil (00:20:54):

Now so many people actually challenge him.

Archil (00:20:57):

That is why I would suggest for Armenia not to bring people like Ivanishvili,

Archil (00:21:03):

but bring people who are strong enough among voters and unite people.

Archil (00:21:12):

And create some kind of,

Archil (00:21:13):

I would say,

Archil (00:21:14):

union,

Archil (00:21:15):

rather, because if you bring another Ivanishvili,

Archil (00:21:18):

you will have the same issue.

Archil (00:21:20):

In four or five years,

Archil (00:21:21):

he or she will be target of criticism because of the power and abilities and money

Archil (00:21:27):

he or she holds in general.

Asbed (00:21:31):

Ashil, we've read some articles in the Western media that call for Western sanctions on

Asbed (00:21:36):

people like Bidzina,

Asbed (00:21:37):

Ivanishvili,

Asbed (00:21:38):

and his entourage,

Asbed (00:21:40):

just basically sanctioning them,

Asbed (00:21:42):

freezing their assets in the West.

Asbed (00:21:44):

There are actually sanctions.

Hovik (00:21:51):

Aspet, it's not just calls for sanctions.

Hovik (00:21:52):

There are, in fact, even Kaha Kaladz, I believe, was included in the sanctions list, right?

Archil (00:21:58):

Well, I mean,

Archil (00:21:59):

if you speak about sanctions,

Archil (00:22:02):

Georgian Dream says that Bidzina Ivanishvili is unofficially already sanctioned

Archil (00:22:06):

by Joe Biden administration.

Archil (00:22:09):

And, well, it's not a secret.

Archil (00:22:10):

He had an issue with accessing his money and he won almost all legal cases against

Archil (00:22:16):

the Swiss banks,

Archil (00:22:17):

but they still refused to give him money.

Archil (00:22:19):

So I do assume that there is some catch there.

Archil (00:22:23):

And all this started since the war in Ukraine.

Archil (00:22:27):

And there are more than 300 people sanctioned by Latvia,

Archil (00:22:31):

Lithuania,

Archil (00:22:32):

Estonia,

Archil (00:22:33):

and by some other countries.

Archil (00:22:35):

So it's not, I mean, this is not something that we already discussed.

Archil (00:22:40):

What we question is that the Georgian dream

Archil (00:22:45):

government is the first government in history of georgia that was sanctioned by the

Archil (00:22:50):

west despite of previous governments being much more authoritarian and doing such

Archil (00:22:57):

stuff that could have been actually a true reason for sanctioning like for example

Archil (00:23:02):

if you take Saakashvili government there are i don't know dozens of people mentioned

Archil (00:23:07):

in you know in the judgments by European Court of Human Rights

Archil (00:23:12):

And they allegedly participated in torture,

Archil (00:23:16):

like assassination attempts and other stuff,

Archil (00:23:19):

but they had never been sanctioned.

Archil (00:23:21):

So that is the issue actually here.

Archil (00:23:23):

Now, when we speak about...

Archil (00:23:25):

sanctioning in general,

Archil (00:23:27):

well,

Archil (00:23:28):

I would say what I tell all my colleagues who support opposition,

Archil (00:23:33):

this is not something new,

Archil (00:23:35):

actually. Just for your audience, there was a special platform called Mona.G.

Archil (00:23:42):

Mona means slave.G.

Archil (00:23:45):

And this actual platform was financed by European agencies.

Archil (00:23:50):

And your opposition members

Archil (00:23:53):

Unilaterally,

Archil (00:23:54):

you used to upload profiles of people who they disliked,

Archil (00:23:58):

who they considered enemies of the state,

Archil (00:24:01):

of the free people.

Archil (00:24:03):

And I mean, and this whole idea was financed by European money.

Archil (00:24:07):

Just imagine that European money was spent on creating a...

Archil (00:24:13):

List of people who have been executed, if you ask opposition members.

Archil (00:24:19):

And then there were black lists also.

Archil (00:24:24):

This is not a secret that opposition created special lists that they brought to

Archil (00:24:29):

European colleagues and Americans,

Archil (00:24:31):

calling them to cancel,

Archil (00:24:32):

block,

Archil (00:24:33):

I don't know, like maybe like kill.

Archil (00:24:36):

And now they're pursuing another policy.

Archil (00:24:39):

They call it Zia Maglobelli.

Archil (00:24:41):

She is a journalist who was detained.

Archil (00:24:44):

There's another list that they are going to put other people there.

Archil (00:24:50):

And what is tremendous and terrific,

Archil (00:24:53):

that in this list,

Archil (00:24:55):

you can see not only the members of the Georgian regime,

Archil (00:24:58):

so not only politicians,

Archil (00:24:59):

but...

Archil (00:25:02):

Just regular citizens.

Archil (00:25:03):

I mean,

Archil (00:25:04):

if I come out and say that I do not support this protest,

Archil (00:25:08):

it doesn't matter what is the reason.

Archil (00:25:12):

Even if I consider these people to be the most anti-European,

Archil (00:25:17):

I can be in this list only because I do not support the protest.

Archil (00:25:21):

So it's not only about, you know, being a member of the government.

Archil (00:25:25):

It's in general, doesn't sharing the idea

Archil (00:25:29):

that we should overthrow government to do something crazy because European ambassadors said so.

Archil (00:25:35):

And that is the whole crazy stuff.

Archil (00:25:37):

Because once again, to sanction someone, you must have some legal reasoning.

Archil (00:25:42):

And if you ask, for example, the reason why some people are sanctioned is absolutely terrific.

Archil (00:25:50):

Because they somehow contributed to the persecution of protesters

Archil (00:25:59):

And no one knows how, because the protesters were prosecuted in November, December last year.

Archil (00:26:06):

Nothing happened since then, but the people are still being sanctioned.

Archil (00:26:14):

So the reasoning is absolutely,

Archil (00:26:16):

I mean, nonsense,

Archil (00:26:17):

because you can just go to the end European court and win the case easily,

Archil (00:26:22):

because it's only politically motivated ideas and no legal background for that.

Asbed (00:26:30):

Actually, actually, I was going to ask you if the EU remains the most polarizing topic in the politics

Asbed (00:26:36):

of Georgia. But let's actually dive deeper into that very issue,

Asbed (00:26:40):

because one of the main reasons why there was so much unrest in Georgia in 2024 was

Asbed (00:26:45):

this so-called foreign agent law that Georgian Dream passed.

Asbed (00:26:50):

Now, the law required basic transparency and accounting of foreign funding flowing

Asbed (00:26:54):

through the NGOs in the country.

Asbed (00:26:57):

And it's been a year since then.

Asbed (00:26:58):

So how is that working out for Georgia?

Archil (00:27:02):

Unfortunately, I wrote a comment where I actually remember very popular and prominent Russian

Archil (00:27:08):

politician,

Archil (00:27:09):

Victor Chernomyrdin.

Archil (00:27:10):

Maybe some of you still remember him.

Archil (00:27:13):

He was actually in charge of the government in Russia in 1993 when there was a

Archil (00:27:18):

fiscal reform in Russia.

Archil (00:27:21):

And at some point when they realized that they made the same mistakes that they

Archil (00:27:27):

used to make,

Archil (00:27:28):

he said that, well,

Archil (00:27:30):

we wanted the best,

Archil (00:27:31):

but we got the regular result,

Archil (00:27:33):

you know, as usually.

Archil (00:27:35):

That was his reaction when we speak about the foreign agent law.

Archil (00:27:40):

So let's say briefly why it was decided to push.

Archil (00:27:44):

Because the urgent dream considered foraying to first to be a serious challenge.

Archil (00:27:51):

They argue that the European and American embassies were contributing to financing

Archil (00:27:56):

opposition through NGOs and helping political parties to overthrow the government.

Archil (00:28:04):

And it's very difficult not to agree when you just listen to a few comments that

Archil (00:28:10):

were made before the parliamentary elections.

Archil (00:28:13):

So there are obviously enough factuality to say that they are actually correct.

Archil (00:28:19):

They asked European ambassadors to stop doing this.

Archil (00:28:24):

As far as they say,

Archil (00:28:25):

they'll be promised that they'll be over,

Archil (00:28:29):

but nothing had been changed,

Archil (00:28:31):

and they pushed for this law.

Archil (00:28:32):

This law was initially called Russian Provincial.

Archil (00:28:36):

law by Kelly Degnan,

Archil (00:28:38):

American ambassador,

Archil (00:28:39):

former American ambassador,

Archil (00:28:40):

and opposition and opponents took this label Russian law,

Archil (00:28:44):

even though it has nothing to do with Russia.

Archil (00:28:46):

It's all take copy pass from Farah,

Archil (00:28:48):

and you know that Farah was accepted in the United States of America.

Archil (00:28:51):

And you also know that such laws are in other countries,

Archil (00:28:55):

including European countries,

Archil (00:28:56):

but it is in Georgia called the Russians.

Archil (00:29:00):

What we have nowadays,

Archil (00:29:02):

those rich,

Archil (00:29:03):

we call them rich or elite NGOs that this law should have restrained from

Archil (00:29:11):

interfering to political life.

Archil (00:29:13):

These NGOs refused to register and they moved their headquarters or registration

Archil (00:29:22):

abroad to European countries.

Archil (00:29:24):

So just a brief example.

Archil (00:29:27):

Let's imagine we have Transparency International Georgia.

Archil (00:29:30):

They said, oh, we are not going to follow the Georgian laws because we are above it.

Archil (00:29:34):

Because we are financed by Europe, why should we follow your rules?

Archil (00:29:37):

So they, for example, went to Germany.

Archil (00:29:41):

They registered in Germany.

Archil (00:29:44):

They are following the German laws because they cannot avoid them,

Archil (00:29:48):

but they continue to contribute in political life in Georgia.

Archil (00:29:52):

That's what they did.

Archil (00:29:53):

So they simply said that we don't care about your laws.

Archil (00:29:57):

but we care about European laws.

Archil (00:29:59):

But,

Archil (00:30:00):

and why I brought the Victor Chernomyrdin,

Archil (00:30:02):

who said that we wanted the bet,

Archil (00:30:04):

but we got,

Archil (00:30:05):

as usually.

Archil (00:30:06):

Because, yeah, Georgian dream made the same mistake as everyone does in the post-war space.

Archil (00:30:15):

The idea was really good.

Archil (00:30:17):

You cannot let everyone to contribute to political life from abroad.

Archil (00:30:23):

But,

Archil (00:30:25):

they did not push these elite rich NGOs to follow the law.

Archil (00:30:31):

They are even letting them to work outside the country and influence politics.

Archil (00:30:38):

But what they actually did,

Archil (00:30:40):

and this was a tremendous mistake,

Archil (00:30:42):

they pushed the small NGOs,

Archil (00:30:45):

other NGOs that had never been in the politics,

Archil (00:30:48):

too close,

Archil (00:30:49):

simply.

Archil (00:30:51):

And what we have is that

Archil (00:30:54):

Instead of getting the best result and pushing those politically motivated NGOs to

Archil (00:31:00):

stop doing this,

Archil (00:31:01):

they just relocated and doing the same stuff.

Archil (00:31:05):

And it seems that government is unwilling to push them because they can have issues with Europe.

Archil (00:31:11):

But the rest NGOs who were doing actually the job,

Archil (00:31:15):

they were not politically motivated,

Archil (00:31:17):

they were forced to close.

Archil (00:31:19):

And I can bring one simple example.

Archil (00:31:22):

I've been collaborating with the institute that is studying Islam and general education.

Archil (00:31:29):

They've been registered in Georgia particularly because Georgia was considered as

Archil (00:31:33):

one of the most free countries in the post-Soviet space.

Archil (00:31:38):

And this institute provided free education, books, collaboration with institutes.

Archil (00:31:44):

So this,

Archil (00:31:45):

the government asked this institute to re-register,

Archil (00:31:51):

even though the registration process was not actually necessary.

Archil (00:31:56):

And as soon as the reapplies,

Archil (00:31:58):

they got answered that,

Archil (00:31:59):

oh,

Archil (00:32:00):

we are not going to register you anymore.

Archil (00:32:03):

You do not fit our national interest.

Archil (00:32:05):

Bye-bye, goodbye.

Archil (00:32:06):

And that's all.

Archil (00:32:07):

five years work just collapsed and people were extremely frustrated because and the

Archil (00:32:13):

reaction was like we never engaged politics we provided for education we are fully

Archil (00:32:20):

um devoted to georgian national interests we have nothing to to hide but we've been

Archil (00:32:26):

expelled we are forced to leave people are unemployed not paid salary

Archil (00:32:32):

I mean, where is the logic?

Asbed (00:32:34):

Is there an avenue for settling the issue through the courts or anything like that?

Asbed (00:32:40):

Or is there an appeal process?

Archil (00:32:42):

I don't know,

Archil (00:32:43):

to be fair with you,

Archil (00:32:45):

because I don't know the logistics in general,

Archil (00:32:48):

because I just got this information.

Archil (00:32:50):

and I was a bit frustrated because,

Archil (00:32:52):

once again, if your goal is to determine which individuals are contributing to unrest and are

Archil (00:33:00):

politically motivated and push them to register,

Archil (00:33:02):

it's one issue.

Archil (00:33:04):

But cancelling injured has nothing to do with the process,

Archil (00:33:08):

only because you are insecure and you are not sure whether you can control someone,

Archil (00:33:13):

I think this is a mistake because it hits

Archil (00:33:16):

It's Georgian international prestige.

Archil (00:33:18):

The first reaction from my colleagues who live in America and in Uzbekistan is that

Archil (00:33:23):

we actually never thought that we will have issues in Georgia,

Archil (00:33:27):

which is considered the,

Archil (00:33:28):

I mean, the safest and the country where free speech is actually protected.

Archil (00:33:33):

And for me,

Archil (00:33:34):

it's unfortunate because the idea was good,

Archil (00:33:38):

but implementation,

Archil (00:33:39):

well,

Archil (00:33:40):

as Victor Chinomorden said,

Archil (00:33:42):

we wanted the best,

Archil (00:33:43):

but we got as usual.

Hovik (00:33:46):

Archil, let's transition to Armenia a little bit.

Hovik (00:33:51):

In August, we all saw this pageantry in Washington, D.C.

Hovik (00:33:54):

when Pashinyan and Aliyev initialed,

Hovik (00:33:57):

but did not sign,

Hovik (00:33:59):

the draft of the so-called peace treaty in Washington,

Hovik (00:34:01):

D.C.

Hovik (00:34:02):

And Donald Trump's signature on that statement was also like as a witness.

Hovik (00:34:08):

He was not a co-signatory, so that's important to highlight.

Hovik (00:34:12):

Now,

Hovik (00:34:13):

this deal in Washington paves the way for this so-called Trump route for

Hovik (00:34:19):

international peace and prosperity trip,

Hovik (00:34:22):

also referred to as the Zong Desert Corridor by our Western and Eastern neighbors.

Asbed (00:34:28):

Even from a podium in the United Nations over the weekend.

Asbed (00:34:31):

Yes.

Hovik (00:34:32):

Yeah.

Hovik (00:34:34):

And they're still like, you know, Pashinyan and Aliyev are bickering about

Hovik (00:34:37):

you know whether it is a Zangezur Corridor or whether it isn't but in reality it

Hovik (00:34:43):

contains language about unimpeded passage from Azerbaijan proper to Nakhijevan and

Hovik (00:34:51):

i was wondering if you followed the the news on this and what are the thoughts and

Hovik (00:34:58):

perspectives from Georgia on this development

Archil (00:35:02):

Well, actually, my first reaction was,

Archil (00:35:04):

wow,

Archil (00:35:05):

to be fair with you,

Archil (00:35:06):

because, I mean, no one actually knew that this is going to happen.

Archil (00:35:09):

I mean,

Archil (00:35:10):

we all expect that at some point there will be some peace deal here by the end of

Archil (00:35:16):

the day. And we've been waiting for this for years.

Archil (00:35:19):

And we've been promised every year that we're going to sign it in,

Archil (00:35:23):

I don't know, in Kishinev,

Archil (00:35:24):

in Tbilisi,

Archil (00:35:25):

in Antarctica,

Archil (00:35:27):

on the moon.

Archil (00:35:28):

But we finally didn't get this, you know, peace deal actually that we are expecting.

Archil (00:35:33):

But I said we got,

Archil (00:35:34):

well, I called this a well-designed PR campaign by Donald Trump to get his Nobel Prize.

Archil (00:35:42):

Because my first reaction was, well, first of all, I was a bit frustrated when

Archil (00:35:49):

Georgian politicians clapped and said like, wow, congratulations.

Archil (00:35:53):

I mean, why?

Archil (00:35:56):

Because if this corridor will be established,

Archil (00:36:00):

Georgia loses its carte blanche as a transit territory.

Archil (00:36:05):

So there is nothing that we should cherish.

Archil (00:36:08):

Nowadays, especially when we have a cold war with Europe,

Archil (00:36:14):

Donald Trump is not on the move to discuss issues with Georgian dream yet.

Archil (00:36:21):

And there is a war in Ukraine.

Archil (00:36:22):

So this is not the best geopolitical set for Georgia.

Archil (00:36:26):

And losing this carte blanche is not the best thing that can happen.

Archil (00:36:31):

So this collapse and this happiness, I was a bit like, no, no, no.

Archil (00:36:36):

This is not something we actually would like to get nowadays.

Archil (00:36:40):

So this is my first reaction.

Archil (00:36:42):

Second one,

Archil (00:36:44):

of course, we all would like to see the fair deal among between Georgia,

Archil (00:36:49):

between Azerbaijan and Armenia.

Archil (00:36:51):

But we see that it's not about fair deal.

Archil (00:36:54):

It's about Armenia giving up some key issues to assure Turkey and Azerbaijan that

Archil (00:37:03):

if at some point Pashinyan leaves,

Archil (00:37:06):

there is no...

Archil (00:37:08):

So there is no way that year one can come back.

Archil (00:37:15):

And it somehow reminds me Boris Yeltsin's awards in 1999,

Archil (00:37:19):

December 31,

Archil (00:37:20):

when he said that my grand goal of my life or political life was to make sure that

Archil (00:37:26):

Soviet Union will never come back.

Archil (00:37:28):

Now we have questions, but the same is here.

Archil (00:37:31):

It seems that Pashinyan is doing everything possible to make sure that the mountain

Archil (00:37:35):

Ararat won't be on Armenian passports,

Archil (00:37:39):

that Nagorno-Karabakh will never be mentioned,

Archil (00:37:42):

because it seems that he is not sure that he will be there in a few years.

Archil (00:37:48):

But by the end of the day, I have only one question.

Archil (00:37:51):

What is the final result?

Archil (00:37:55):

Because, and here's the key argument.

Archil (00:37:58):

From a geopolitical standpoint, the Washington has no...

Archil (00:38:04):

power here and we know that Iranian uh foreign minister said that there will be no

Archil (00:38:09):

corridor unless Iran and Russia says so so from geopolitical standpoint the reason

Archil (00:38:15):

we are having war in Ukraine is because Washington and Brussels decided they can't

Archil (00:38:20):

go it alone and Russia said ah no no no this is not gonna happen so here we're

Archil (00:38:26):

having the same so the two guys

Archil (00:38:30):

went to Washington to sign a treaty that will affect Georgia, Iran, Russia, Turkey

Archil (00:38:38):

without even discussing and negotiating the topic so that's why i do i do not

Archil (00:38:46):

consider this uh agreeing to be serious

Archil (00:38:50):

Because unless Iran and Russia said so,

Archil (00:38:53):

and plus you discuss it with Georgia,

Archil (00:38:56):

I don't think that it's possible to create a corridor.

Archil (00:38:59):

And don't forget,

Archil (00:39:01):

first of all, you connect mainland Azerbaijan to Nakhichevan through a very small,

Archil (00:39:08):

narrow corridor that should be protected by private American military group.

Archil (00:39:14):

Who will let American troops to be on the ground in Armenia?

Archil (00:39:20):

This is a direct threat.

Hovik (00:39:20):

Not far from the Iranian border too.

Archil (00:39:22):

Yeah, this is that.

Archil (00:39:24):

I mean, this is 100% direct threat to Iran and Russia.

Archil (00:39:28):

It's,

Archil (00:39:29):

I mean, if Russia lets this to happen,

Archil (00:39:32):

then some hidden negotiations are happening on the ground.

Asbed (00:39:35):

I'm convinced that there's something like that going on.

Archil (00:39:37):

But I'm not sure what United States of America can offer Iran in exchange because,

Archil (00:39:44):

okay,

Archil (00:39:45):

Trump won't be there on the ground tomorrow.

Archil (00:39:48):

And how will then Iran react on Americans being on the ground in Armenia,

Archil (00:39:54):

a very sensitive region?

Archil (00:39:56):

And who will protect these American militaries if something happens?

Archil (00:40:00):

How can we avoid the global war?

Asbed (00:40:04):

I want to know your view of the concerns that we've actually had that this corridor could block

Asbed (00:40:12):

connectivity between Armenia and Iran.

Asbed (00:40:15):

And of course that is the north-south corridor and Georgia is part of that north-south corridor.

Asbed (00:40:20):

So you have a big stake in it and yet nobody's really talked to you about this as far as I know.

Asbed (00:40:25):

What is your view of this corridor blocking that north-south connectivity basically?

Asbed (00:40:31):

I'm sorry.

Archil (00:40:32):

Let me say, I do not consider this topic seriously in general.

Archil (00:40:37):

That is why I do not consider

Archil (00:40:39):

this initiative to be implemented in general.

Archil (00:40:43):

I do think that neither Russia nor Iran will agree on that.

Archil (00:40:48):

Because Armenia is like Ukraine for Russia, with all due respect.

Archil (00:40:53):

And Armenia was always in the close interest of Russia.

Archil (00:40:59):

And having any military staff on the ground from America is absolutely beyond imagination.

Archil (00:41:07):

It's the same as it was with Ukraine.

Archil (00:41:10):

People speak that Vladimir Putin has some obsession about Ukraine, but it's a false claim.

Archil (00:41:17):

It has nothing to do with obsessions.

Archil (00:41:19):

It has to do everything with geopolitics.

Archil (00:41:22):

that the Russia made it obvious we are not going to have any nato military staff on

Archil (00:41:30):

the ground in the what they call nearer abroad and we speak nearly abroad it's

Archil (00:41:35):

Georgia, Belarus, Ukraine, Azerbaijan, and I don't mention Central Asian countries now

Archil (00:41:44):

so

Archil (00:41:45):

What is the point of waging war against enormously big Ukraine and then having

Archil (00:41:51):

American troops on the ground in very small Armenia?

Archil (00:41:55):

So that is why I don't think that this is actually,

Archil (00:42:00):

this is something that they will move forward.

Archil (00:42:03):

That's why I call it a peer campaign.

Archil (00:42:06):

But if it happens,

Archil (00:42:08):

if it happens,

Archil (00:42:09):

it cannot happen without,

Archil (00:42:10):

as you said and as I mentioned,

Archil (00:42:12):

without some hidden agreement.

Archil (00:42:15):

Georgia should get something, Iran should get something, and Russia should get something.

Archil (00:42:21):

And here's the catch.

Archil (00:42:22):

How can we all negotiate all of this?

Archil (00:42:25):

Because Iran considers Turkey to be rival,

Archil (00:42:28):

the United States to be enemy,

Archil (00:42:31):

Russia considers Georgia,

Archil (00:42:33):

and Georgia considers Russia to be enemy.

Archil (00:42:35):

And I mean, if this is going to happen, I would be extremely surprised.

Archil (00:42:41):

I think that

Archil (00:42:42):

Donald Trump should get not the peace Nobel Prize,

Archil (00:42:45):

but Nobel Prize for negotiation style,

Asbed (00:42:49):

not for peace.

Asbed (00:42:50):

You know, it's funny.

Asbed (00:42:51):

One of our listeners,

Asbed (00:42:52):

I think,

Asbed (00:42:53):

wrote a comment once saying,

Asbed (00:42:54):

why don't they put just a traffic light and be done with this north,

Asbed (00:42:59):

south and east, west?

Hovik (00:43:00):

Archil,

Hovik (00:43:01):

so Armenian opposition is now in a debate on how best to deal with the civil

Hovik (00:43:07):

contract-led parliament.

Hovik (00:43:10):

We know that in Armenia,

Hovik (00:43:11):

for instance,

Hovik (00:43:14):

Pashinyan has a huge supermajority,

Hovik (00:43:17):

and there are talks about votes of no confidence and trying to immobilize street

Hovik (00:43:22):

protests,

Hovik (00:43:23):

but essentially Pashinyan has all the bases covered.

Hovik (00:43:29):

He has heavily augmented and weaponized internal security forces,

Hovik (00:43:35):

and the opposition essentially,

Hovik (00:43:37):

at this point at least,

Hovik (00:43:38):

cannot muster any ability or capability to effect change.

Hovik (00:43:45):

Now, Georgia,

Hovik (00:43:46):

it seems similar in one respect,

Hovik (00:43:48):

which is that there's a strong central,

Hovik (00:43:51):

there's a strong grip on power

Hovik (00:43:54):

by Georgian Dream.

Hovik (00:43:56):

But I wanted to ask you,

Hovik (00:43:58):

what do you think are the key differences between Georgia and Armenia in this

Hovik (00:44:02):

regard?

Archil (00:44:05):

Well, I think the key difference that we made everything much earlier,

Archil (00:44:09):

I mean, 10,

Archil (00:44:10):

15 years ago, for example,

Archil (00:44:13):

The Nikol Pashinyan came in 2018.

Archil (00:44:15):

We had our Nikol Pashinyan in 2003.

Archil (00:44:18):

Then we had the Saakashvili in charge for nine years,

Archil (00:44:22):

and he was doing everything that he wanted,

Archil (00:44:24):

actually.

Archil (00:44:25):

I mean, he did everything.

Archil (00:44:26):

There was no one who could have stopped him.

Archil (00:44:29):

And actually,

Archil (00:44:30):

this led him to his demise because he did everything possibly that you could have

Archil (00:44:37):

possibly imagined.

Archil (00:44:39):

And this drove people absolutely crazy to be extremely critical,

Archil (00:44:46):

even though he had his ups and downs.

Archil (00:44:49):

And then at some point,

Archil (00:44:52):

Some person came out and he managed to defeat the government in the region that it

Archil (00:44:59):

never actually lost.

Archil (00:45:01):

So in Georgia, we have such a phrase, you know, I will just paraphrase.

Archil (00:45:10):

If you see someone crazy enough,

Archil (00:45:13):

just let him to move on and he will fall somewhere without your help.

Archil (00:45:19):

So the best policy for me is to let Pashinyan to slowly make so many mistakes that

Archil (00:45:29):

by the end of the day,

Archil (00:45:30):

they will be able to accumulate this dissatisfaction and defeat the Pashinyan.

Archil (00:45:35):

And what's very important, this is the mistake that everyone makes.

Archil (00:45:39):

We mainly concentrate on Yerevan and Tbilisi, but the power lies in the regions.

Archil (00:45:45):

Because this mindset that we should win Tbilisi is because we are going to make a

Archil (00:45:51):

revolution again.

Archil (00:45:52):

Because parliament isn't really

Archil (00:45:56):

And Mediterranean is in Yerevan.

Archil (00:45:59):

But this is a very wrong mindset because Yerevan is not Armenian.

Archil (00:46:04):

And in elections, it's not Yerevan winning.

Archil (00:46:07):

It is Armenia winning in general.

Archil (00:46:11):

So I think there are three things that Armenian opposition must do.

Archil (00:46:15):

The first one, find someone who is not attached to the formal government.

Archil (00:46:20):

Because it's obviously when people see someone who they...

Archil (00:46:24):

get used to,

Archil (00:46:25):

and they know that he is a continuation of the former government,

Archil (00:46:29):

they won't sacrifice anything for this person.

Archil (00:46:32):

So some new face.

Archil (00:46:34):

B, let Pashinyan to talk.

Archil (00:46:36):

More he talks, more crazy stuff he says.

Archil (00:46:38):

And we saw his, like, I would say, debates with the Armenian church, you know?

Archil (00:46:45):

Not the best way, that by Pashinyan, you know?

Archil (00:46:49):

And the third one, try hard in the regions.

Archil (00:46:54):

Try hard with the regions because once they take a look at Georgian opposition,

Archil (00:46:59):

they almost want to be licit,

Archil (00:47:00):

but they lost the elections parliamentary because all regions were dominated by the

Archil (00:47:06):

government.

Archil (00:47:07):

Georgian Dream was smart enough to realize that the power lies in the people and

Archil (00:47:13):

people live,

Archil (00:47:14):

yes, it's to be licit,

Archil (00:47:15):

but those who can bring you additional votes are in the regions.

Archil (00:47:21):

So you need to work hard in the regions.

Archil (00:47:24):

And if you work hard in the regions, we won't make the mistake Georgian opposition did.

Archil (00:47:30):

And look at Georgian opposition now.

Archil (00:47:32):

They are not even trying in the regions anymore.

Archil (00:47:35):

They just gave up. They said, we are not going to even put candidates on the municipal elections.

Archil (00:47:40):

Just think how enormously failed they are in the regions.

Archil (00:47:44):

So they won't be able to win elections unless,

Archil (00:47:48):

and this happens once in 12 years,

Archil (00:47:51):

in 15 years,

Archil (00:47:52):

unless something fully crazy stuff happens and people even in the regions realize

Archil (00:47:56):

that we are fed up.

Archil (00:47:58):

But you need to bring people to this point to have them.

Archil (00:48:02):

And as I said,

Archil (00:48:03):

the best way to learn,

Archil (00:48:05):

just read modern political history of Georgia for the last 15 years.

Archil (00:48:10):

This is the best handbook for Armenian colleagues.

Archil (00:48:14):

Of course, if you are willing to push for political changes,

Archil (00:48:18):

if you are willing to push for another revolution,

Archil (00:48:21):

then you're going to have another passion and the same cycle over again and again

Archil (00:48:26):

and again.

Asbed (00:48:28):

Okay, well, I like your advice.

Asbed (00:48:30):

So let's close on that note.

Asbed (00:48:32):

Thank you very much for joining us, Archil.

Asbed (00:48:34):

We'll talk to you soon.

Asbed (00:48:35):

And I hope that these elections go peacefully and according to the will of the people.

Archil (00:48:41):

Well, if not peacefully, we'll meet each other sooner than we expected.

Asbed (00:48:44):

Yes, that's true.

Asbed (00:48:46):

Take care.

Archil (00:48:47):

See you soon.

(00:48:48):

Bye-bye.

Asbed (00:48:50):

Okay, well, that's our show today, Hovig.

Asbed (00:48:53):

We recorded it on September 28, 2025, basically six days before the Georgian elections.

Asbed (00:48:59):

We've been talking with Dr.

Asbed (00:49:00):

Archil Sikharulidze,

Asbed (00:49:02):

who is a founder of the Tbilisi-based research institute Sikha Foundation in the

Asbed (00:49:07):

Republic of Georgia.

Asbed (00:49:08):

He holds degrees and his specialty is in international relations,

Asbed (00:49:12):

and he focuses on Russian and Islamic studies,

Asbed (00:49:15):

as well as political processes and international relations in Ukraine,

Asbed (00:49:19):

the South Caucasus,

Asbed (00:49:20):

and Kazakhstan.

Asbed (00:49:22):

And he writes extensively for various local and international media platforms.

Hovik (00:49:26):

Aspen,

Hovik (00:49:27):

I was, you know,

Hovik (00:49:28):

prior to the show,

Hovik (00:49:29):

I was researching any news that I could find about Georgia.

Hovik (00:49:34):

And I realized that

Hovik (00:49:36):

There is nothing about these elections in Georgia.

Hovik (00:49:39):

So I was like both surprised and like I'm asking myself,

Hovik (00:49:43):

are we just basically talking into the ether?

Hovik (00:49:45):

Because it seems like there's a huge disinterest in the topic,

Hovik (00:49:50):

especially in the English language.

Hovik (00:49:52):

But from another perspective,

Hovik (00:49:54):

here we are two guys in Armenia that are trying our best to cover the region.

Hovik (00:49:58):

So, you know, I would like to ask our listeners, if you appreciate that, then do the needful.

Hovik (00:50:03):

And at the minimum,

Hovik (00:50:06):

Like, comment, and share our podcast so that we can get the boost from the algorithm.

Hovik (00:50:11):

And if you're feeling extra generous,

Hovik (00:50:13):

then why not also contribute to podcasts.groong.org / donate.

Asbed (00:50:18):

podcasts.groong.org / donate.

Asbed (00:50:21):

Hovik, one more thing.

Asbed (00:50:23):

I'm glad you mentioned two guys.

Asbed (00:50:26):

Well, not two guys in Armenia today.

Asbed (00:50:28):

I guess it would be two guys in Los Angeles,

Asbed (00:50:31):

two Armenians in Los Angeles talking about Georgian elections.

Asbed (00:50:34):

But we are interested in what goes on in all of the neighboring countries and the

Asbed (00:50:39):

region for Armenia.

Asbed (00:50:40):

So these are important.

Asbed (00:50:42):

And that reminds me that there was a listener comment on one of our videos saying,

Asbed (00:50:48):

Not so much about Georgia.

Asbed (00:50:49):

Talk a little bit more about the Middle East.

Asbed (00:50:52):

Well,

Asbed (00:50:53):

folks, we haven't had a good opportunity to schedule the right guests to come on board and

Asbed (00:50:58):

talk about those,

Asbed (00:50:59):

but we are definitely reading your comments.

Asbed (00:51:01):

We listen to what you're saying,

Asbed (00:51:03):

and we will get something more on the Middle East going as soon as schedules allow.

Asbed (00:51:09):

Until then, I'm Asbed Bedrossian in Los Angeles.

Hovik (00:51:14):

And I'm Hovik Manucharyan, temporarily visiting Los Angeles, but mainly based in Yerevan.

Hovik (00:51:20):

We'll talk to you soon.

Hovik (00:51:22):

Take care.

People on this episode

Head Shot

Asbed Bedrossian

Co-host
Head Shot

Hovik Manucharyan

Co-host
Head Shot

Archil Sikharulidze

Guest

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