Armenian News Network - Groong: Week In Review Podcast

Benyamin Poghosyan - Ukraine War update; Pashinyan’s Persecution of Church and Opposition intensifies | Ep 483, Nov 2, 2025

• Armenian News Network / Groong • Episode 483

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Groong Week in Review - November 2, 2025

Topics:

  • Ukraine war status and U.S.–Russia dynamics
  • Church–state tensions and religious prosecutions
  • Opposition arrests, trials, and civil liberties
  • Border demarcation, enclaves


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Hosts


Episode 483 | Recorded: November 3, 2025

SHOW NOTES: https://podcasts.groong.org/483

VIDEO: https://youtu.be/KqMS6eji7sc

#UkraineWar #ArmeniaPolitics #ChurchPersecution #OppositionCrackdown


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Asbed (00:00:04):

Russia pushes on the battlefield and spotlights next generation platforms.

Asbed (00:00:08):

And in Armenia,

Asbed (00:00:09):

Pashinyan's campaign against the church rages on and more opposition members are

Asbed (00:00:14):

jailed.

Asbed (00:00:15):

These and other topics are the ones we are going to cover in this episode of the

Asbed (00:00:19):

Armenian News Network Groong Weekend Review for November 2,

Asbed (00:00:23):

2025.

Asbed (00:00:24):

And today we're talking with Benyamin Poghosyan, a senior fellow at APRI Armenia.

Asbed (00:00:29):

Hello, Benyamin.

Asbed (00:00:30):

Welcome to the Groong Podcast.

Benyamin (00:00:32):

Hello, Asbed.

Benyamin (00:00:33):

Hello, Hovik.

Benyamin (00:00:34):

As usual, thanks for having me and it's my pleasure.

Hovik (00:00:37):

Welcome, Benyamin.

Hovik (00:00:38):

And let's begin by focusing our attention a little bit outside of Armenia.

Hovik (00:00:44):

The war in Ukraine appears to be raging on and undeniably tilting towards Russia.

Hovik (00:00:52):

Bakarovsk, or as Russians say, Krasno-Armetsk looks set to fall.

Hovik (00:00:59):

and Ukraine faces a severe manpower deficit.

Hovik (00:01:03):

Meanwhile,

Hovik (00:01:04):

in other parts of the front,

Hovik (00:01:06):

such as in Zaporozhye,

Hovik (00:01:07):

also the Russians are making advances.

Hovik (00:01:10):

Now, Trump's strategy seems to have been to advocate for a freeze on the front lines,

Hovik (00:01:16):

but Moscow seems to not agree with that,

Hovik (00:01:20):

and it's aiming for battlefield decisions.

Hovik (00:01:24):

What's your take on the current state of the war in Ukraine?

Benyamin (00:01:29):

So,

Benyamin (00:01:30):

war in Ukraine,

Benyamin (00:01:31):

this continues for almost four years,

Benyamin (00:01:34):

and unfortunately no signs that it may stop,

Benyamin (00:01:37):

despite early in 2025,

Benyamin (00:01:40):

and especially after the Alaska meeting,

Benyamin (00:01:42):

there were some hopes that probably the war can be stopped.

Benyamin (00:01:46):

But strategically, I think we have two options here.

Benyamin (00:01:50):

either the war is going to be stopped on the current front line without any

Benyamin (00:01:54):

political decisions,

Benyamin (00:01:56):

which,

Benyamin (00:01:58):

as far as I understand,

Benyamin (00:01:59):

is absolutely not acceptable for Russia,

Benyamin (00:02:02):

because as even a Ukrainian former foreign minister said in its recent paper in one

Benyamin (00:02:08):

of the famous Western research platform,

Benyamin (00:02:12):

he said that in this case we may end up having like Azerbaijan-Arminian scenario.

Benyamin (00:02:17):

Yes, there will be ceasefire,

Benyamin (00:02:19):

but all territories of Ukraine will continue to be recognized as occupied by

Benyamin (00:02:24):

Russia,

Benyamin (00:02:26):

and Ukraine any moment will have the right,

Benyamin (00:02:27):

at least from an international legal point of view,

Benyamin (00:02:31):

to restart the war and take back its occupied territories.

Benyamin (00:02:34):

He said, like Azerbaijan did in 2020 when he started war,

Benyamin (00:02:38):

because in 1994 Azerbaijan agreed on ceasefire,

Benyamin (00:02:41):

but he didn't recognize independence of Nagorno-Karabakh Republic.

Benyamin (00:02:46):

So,

Benyamin (00:02:47):

and I think Russia understands it very well,

Benyamin (00:02:49):

that if you freeze the war along current battle lines without any political

Benyamin (00:02:54):

agreement,

Benyamin (00:02:55):

it means simply you are stopping the war for another war which may happen three

Benyamin (00:03:00):

years, five years,

Benyamin (00:03:01):

ten years from now.

Benyamin (00:03:03):

And most probably we may assume that the West,

Benyamin (00:03:06):

NATO, the European Union,

Benyamin (00:03:08):

probably even the United States,

Benyamin (00:03:10):

at least after Trump,

Benyamin (00:03:11):

will continue to pour weapons into Ukraine and prepare Ukraine for another war against Russia.

Benyamin (00:03:17):

Scenario number one,

Benyamin (00:03:20):

there is a broader deal,

Benyamin (00:03:22):

and in this broader deal,

Benyamin (00:03:23):

at least some territories,

Benyamin (00:03:24):

which is now controlled by Russia,

Benyamin (00:03:26):

maybe all,

Benyamin (00:03:27):

but at least some territories,

Benyamin (00:03:29):

are legally recognized as part of Russia,

Benyamin (00:03:31):

by Ukraine and by international community,

Benyamin (00:03:33):

maybe through some UN Security Council resolution,

Benyamin (00:03:36):

and this kind of deal will bring us back to the 1945

Benyamin (00:03:42):

deals, when there were some territorial swaps.

Benyamin (00:03:44):

For example,

Benyamin (00:03:45):

part of Germany ended up to become part of Poland,

Benyamin (00:03:48):

like part of Germany ended up to become part of the Soviet Union,

Benyamin (00:03:51):

but as we see,

Benyamin (00:03:52):

after 80 years after the Second World War,

Benyamin (00:03:54):

no one is disputing these borders.

Benyamin (00:03:56):

So there are these two basic scenarios.

Benyamin (00:03:58):

And of course,

Benyamin (00:03:59):

Russia is interested to see scenario number two,

Benyamin (00:04:02):

while Ukraine,

Benyamin (00:04:04):

and probably Zuzoti in the West,

Benyamin (00:04:06):

who still view Russia-Ukraine war as a way

Benyamin (00:04:11):

to weaken Russia, like Salami tactics.

Benyamin (00:04:14):

They are interested in scenario number one,

Benyamin (00:04:16):

like let's freeze the war,

Benyamin (00:04:18):

again we will pour weapons in Ukraine and war will start.

Benyamin (00:04:22):

So,

Benyamin (00:04:24):

it means that either the Ukraine plus the West should force Russia to accept

Benyamin (00:04:29):

scenario number one,

Benyamin (00:04:31):

or Russia should force Ukraine,

Benyamin (00:04:33):

as a part of the West at least,

Benyamin (00:04:35):

to accept scenario number two.

Benyamin (00:04:37):

As of now, why war continues?

Benyamin (00:04:39):

Because as of now,

Benyamin (00:04:41):

Neither Russia nor Ukraine has a power to force its will upon others.

Benyamin (00:04:47):

Yes,

Benyamin (00:04:48):

Russia has gains,

Benyamin (00:04:49):

but Russia's gains are not like too much strategic,

Benyamin (00:04:52):

like to spend months and months for,

Benyamin (00:04:54):

for example,

Benyamin (00:04:55):

to taking one city,

Benyamin (00:04:57):

Ogrovsk, or part of another city,

Benyamin (00:04:59):

And again,

Benyamin (00:05:01):

we are not speaking about cities of half million population,

Benyamin (00:05:03):

of one million population.

Benyamin (00:05:05):

I think we are speaking about cities less than 100,000 population.

Benyamin (00:05:09):

And given that Ukrainian territory,

Benyamin (00:05:12):

at least original Ukrainian territory,

Benyamin (00:05:14):

including Crimea,

Benyamin (00:05:15):

was,

Benyamin (00:05:16):

I guess, more than 600,000 square kilometers with,

Benyamin (00:05:19):

like,

Benyamin (00:05:20):

millions and millions of population,

Benyamin (00:05:22):

and even currently, Ukraine population probably is 25 million,

Benyamin (00:05:25):

yes,

Benyamin (00:05:26):

Russia may take Pokrovsk,

Benyamin (00:05:28):

But then we have Myrnograd,

Benyamin (00:05:30):

then we have Kupansk,

Benyamin (00:05:32):

then we have Slavyansk,

Benyamin (00:05:33):

then we have Kramatorsk.

Benyamin (00:05:35):

And we're only speaking about the cities in the Donetsk People's Republic,

Benyamin (00:05:40):

which itself is a 28,000 square kilometer of territory,

Benyamin (00:05:43):

almost entire Armenia.

Benyamin (00:05:44):

So from Ukrainian perspective,

Benyamin (00:05:45):

to fully control Donetsk People's Republic,

Benyamin (00:05:48):

probably Russia needs one or two years from Ukrainian perspective and from the

Benyamin (00:05:54):

Western perspective. So they believe, okay,

Benyamin (00:05:56):

Let Russia spend 3-4 months,

Benyamin (00:05:58):

I don't know, tens of thousands killed and wounded soldiers,

Benyamin (00:06:00):

and let him take Pokrovsk.

Benyamin (00:06:03):

Let Russia spend another 6 months, 100,000 killed and wounded, and take, for example, Myrnograd.

Benyamin (00:06:10):

Then another 6 months,

Benyamin (00:06:11):

another 100,000 killed and wounded,

Benyamin (00:06:14):

taking Kramatorsk,

Benyamin (00:06:15):

Slavyansk,

Benyamin (00:06:16):

and then we will jump into 2027.

Benyamin (00:06:18):

Which, from the Western perspective,

Benyamin (00:06:20):

means that while the war continues,

Benyamin (00:06:22):

Russia is suffering,

Benyamin (00:06:23):

also economically.

Benyamin (00:06:26):

Again, the part of the West and Ukraine believes that even if Russia at the end of the day

Benyamin (00:06:30):

will militarily take entire Donetsk People's Republic,

Benyamin (00:06:34):

this still will take for one or two years,

Benyamin (00:06:37):

will mean hundreds of thousands of Russian killed and wounded soldiers,

Benyamin (00:06:41):

will continue to inflict significant economic pain on Russia,

Benyamin (00:06:44):

and this is the line of the strategic interest to weaken Russia as much as

Benyamin (00:06:48):

possible.

Asbed (00:06:49):

Benjamin, is that true?

Asbed (00:06:51):

Is Russia truly suffering economically and technologically?

Asbed (00:06:54):

Because it seems like it's announcing new and more modern weapons all the time.

Asbed (00:06:59):

And the economy seems to be doing well.

Benyamin (00:07:02):

Economy seems to be doing well, but I think seems is a good word here.

Benyamin (00:07:06):

Yes, Russia jumped into war economy.

Benyamin (00:07:09):

And that is why Russia was able,

Benyamin (00:07:10):

like, even to register,

Benyamin (00:07:12):

like, GDP growth for a few percent in 2023 and 2024.

Benyamin (00:07:16):

In 2025, it will be less.

Benyamin (00:07:18):

And in 2026, even according to Russian estimates, probably GDP growth will be less than 1%.

Benyamin (00:07:23):

Because war economy can help you to boost the economy.

Benyamin (00:07:27):

But it's not sustainable.

Benyamin (00:07:29):

I mean, you cannot 10 years or 5 years or 7 years have permanent war economy.

Benyamin (00:07:35):

So...

Benyamin (00:07:36):

Economically, yes, West hoped to destroy Russian economy much sooner.

Benyamin (00:07:40):

And the West failed.

Benyamin (00:07:41):

Through these,

Benyamin (00:07:42):

I don't know, 19 packages of EU sanctions and probably more than 35,000 overall sanctions.

Benyamin (00:07:48):

West failed to destroy Russian economy.

Benyamin (00:07:50):

But to tell that Russian economy does not feel pain, I would not agree on that.

Benyamin (00:07:56):

So from Western perspective, yes, they failed to destroy Russian economy very quickly.

Benyamin (00:08:00):

But still, they believe that every year of war mean main casualties and mean

Benyamin (00:08:06):

economic pain for Russia.

Benyamin (00:08:07):

So,

Benyamin (00:08:08):

again,

Benyamin (00:08:09):

from my perspective,

Benyamin (00:08:10):

West believes that at least they can continue the war for another two years without

Benyamin (00:08:15):

accepting Russian terms.

Benyamin (00:08:17):

Russian terms to legally recognize Crimea and at least Lugansk and Donetsk People's

Benyamin (00:08:23):

Republic as legally part of Russia.

Benyamin (00:08:25):

While Russia believes that if he simply signs a ceasefire and will freeze the

Benyamin (00:08:30):

conflict along the current battle lines without getting the legal recognition of

Benyamin (00:08:35):

part of the territory as part of Russia,

Benyamin (00:08:38):

It's bad for Russia, because it means that after 3, 5 or 10 years, there will be another war.

Benyamin (00:08:43):

And at that time,

Benyamin (00:08:44):

Ukraine will be stronger,

Benyamin (00:08:45):

because for this period of time,

Benyamin (00:08:48):

West will train Ukraine army,

Benyamin (00:08:49):

West will provide more and more weapons to Ukraine.

Benyamin (00:08:53):

So we are in some sort of deadlock.

Benyamin (00:08:54):

And again, I see the deadlock can be solved in two ways.

Benyamin (00:08:59):

Either Russia understands that he is not able to continue its movement forward and

Benyamin (00:09:04):

he has no other chances to sign this fire,

Benyamin (00:09:07):

which means accept scenario number one,

Benyamin (00:09:09):

accept Western and Ukrainian conditions to end the current phase of the war.

Benyamin (00:09:14):

Or Russia will be able to force Ukraine and part of the West to accept scenario number two.

Benyamin (00:09:21):

But from my understanding,

Benyamin (00:09:23):

The nicest scenario may not happen in the next one year at least.

Benyamin (00:09:26):

So that is why I'm afraid my assessment will be that war may continue well into

Benyamin (00:09:32):

2026 and maybe even we may jump into 2027.

Hovik (00:09:35):

Benjamin,

Hovik (00:09:36):

it looks like that there is a shortage,

Hovik (00:09:39):

there is a true shortage of manpower on the Ukrainian side.

Hovik (00:09:42):

So how will it look politically?

Hovik (00:09:46):

Internally,

Hovik (00:09:47):

if let's say Russia occupies all of Lugansk and Donetsk,

Hovik (00:09:53):

will Zelensky be able to hold political power despite all these losses?

Benyamin (00:09:59):

Look, let's not forget that in Ukraine now there is no political life.

Benyamin (00:10:03):

It's a military situation.

Benyamin (00:10:04):

I believe all the parties, they are either banned or under state control.

Benyamin (00:10:09):

There is no independent media because it's a wartime situation there.

Benyamin (00:10:15):

And there is even no elections because according to constitution,

Benyamin (00:10:20):

the new presidential election should take place in 2024.

Benyamin (00:10:22):

Now we are jumping into 2026.

Benyamin (00:10:24):

There is no election.

Benyamin (00:10:28):

And the West fully supports this,

Benyamin (00:10:30):

telling that as far as the war continues,

Benyamin (00:10:32):

there should be no elections in Ukraine.

Benyamin (00:10:34):

Okay, if there is no elections in Ukraine, then Zelensky's position politically is secure.

Benyamin (00:10:39):

So I don't think that Zelensky needs to think,

Benyamin (00:10:42):

at least in a short-term perspective,

Benyamin (00:10:43):

about political implications,

Benyamin (00:10:45):

because currently there is no political challenge to Zelensky.

Benyamin (00:10:48):

And there cannot be any political challenge to Zelensky, because there is no political life.

Benyamin (00:10:54):

It's a wartime situation and everything is controlled by Zelensky.

Benyamin (00:10:59):

So from this perspective, I think I don't see how anyone can challenge Zelensky now.

Benyamin (00:11:04):

Because if anyone will start to challenge Zelensky,

Benyamin (00:11:06):

at the end of the day,

Benyamin (00:11:07):

he very easily can be accused of being a Russian spy.

Benyamin (00:11:11):

He will be arrested and put in jail, as simple as it is.

Hovik (00:11:14):

Yeah.

Hovik (00:11:15):

All right, let's zoom out a little bit and look at it from more of not just the Russia and

Hovik (00:11:20):

Ukraine prism.

Hovik (00:11:22):

Militarily, it looks like Russia is revamping its technologies from the Soviet decades.

Hovik (00:11:30):

This week, it announced two major weapons.

Hovik (00:11:34):

One of them is called Poseidon.

Hovik (00:11:36):

It's a submarine or a super torpedo,

Hovik (00:11:38):

and it's nuclear-powered and essentially has an unlimited power supply and is able

Hovik (00:11:43):

to be controlled for a long period of time.

Hovik (00:11:47):

And the other is the Burevesnik, which is a long-range nuclear-powered cruise missile.

Hovik (00:11:54):

Similarly, Putin touts it as unlimited range.

Hovik (00:11:58):

Both systems, as I said, use nuclear power, but aren't themselves nuclear weapons.

Hovik (00:12:04):

Soon after those tests, Trump said that he would authorize new U.S.

Hovik (00:12:08):

nuclear tests.

Hovik (00:12:10):

How do you read the messaging between Washington and Moscow in this tit for tat?

Hovik (00:12:17):

And, you know, we know that there was an Alaska summit earlier this year.

Hovik (00:12:22):

Last month, there was supposed to be a summit in Hungary, which got canceled.

Hovik (00:12:26):

So with all these escalations between the US and Russia,

Hovik (00:12:31):

what is the current state of US-Russia relations,

Hovik (00:12:35):

which I think is critical to how the war in Ukraine ends as well?

Benyamin (00:12:41):

Okay,

Benyamin (00:12:42):

my understanding is,

Benyamin (00:12:43):

of course, as far as anyone can understand President Trump's mindset and President Trump's

Benyamin (00:12:47):

policy,

Benyamin (00:12:48):

which is like changing too quickly,

Benyamin (00:12:50):

very often we hear something in the morning and completely different things in the

Benyamin (00:12:55):

evening and these cycles continues and continues and continues.

Benyamin (00:12:59):

But strategically,

Benyamin (00:13:01):

my understanding is that A Trump does not care about Ukraine,

Benyamin (00:13:05):

B Trump would like to have some sort of business with Russia

Benyamin (00:13:10):

It could be everything from natural gas to rare earth metals,

Benyamin (00:13:14):

which Trump is desperate to decrease its dependence on China,

Benyamin (00:13:19):

because China controls a significant share of global market here.

Benyamin (00:13:22):

So yes, Trump would like to have business with Russia.

Benyamin (00:13:25):

See, for entire Europe, I think Trump believes it's okay, Europe is not US business.

Benyamin (00:13:31):

So the U.S.

Benyamin (00:13:32):

should significantly decrease its resources towards securing Europe.

Benyamin (00:13:36):

And we already see the decisions that have been made,

Benyamin (00:13:38):

for example,

Benyamin (00:13:39):

to decrease American military presence in Romania.

Benyamin (00:13:42):

The same may happen in Baltic states.

Benyamin (00:13:45):

Poland is still safe.

Benyamin (00:13:47):

Even there are discussions that some troops can be taken from Germany and to be put

Benyamin (00:13:52):

into Poland.

Benyamin (00:13:53):

But in general, we see the decrease of US military presence in Europe.

Benyamin (00:13:58):

And Trump's key problem,

Benyamin (00:14:00):

I think,

Benyamin (00:14:01):

is China or how to secure a US economic or continue US economic hegemony.

Benyamin (00:14:07):

Because militarily, I think it's clear that as of now, US is a hegemon.

Benyamin (00:14:12):

Because if you are spending approximately one trillion dollar

Benyamin (00:14:16):

or almost $1 trillion per year on your defense,

Benyamin (00:14:20):

and Chinese military budget I think less than $300 billion,

Benyamin (00:14:23):

then definitely it's very difficult for China to compete with US militarily.

Benyamin (00:14:29):

But economically,

Benyamin (00:14:30):

we see that China is more or less competing with the United States,

Benyamin (00:14:34):

including in these sensitive technologies like artificial intelligence,

Benyamin (00:14:38):

I don't know,

Benyamin (00:14:39):

data science,

Benyamin (00:14:40):

robotics,

Benyamin (00:14:41):

etc.

Benyamin (00:14:42):

So, but this is strategically, okay, I don't care about Ukraine,

Benyamin (00:14:45):

I don't care about Europe much.

Benyamin (00:14:48):

I would like to have business with Russia.

Benyamin (00:14:50):

I am mostly focused on China.

Benyamin (00:14:53):

So this is strategically,

Benyamin (00:14:54):

but also we should understand that despite the US is number one power in the world

Benyamin (00:15:00):

still,

Benyamin (00:15:01):

maybe we passed the unipolar moment,

Benyamin (00:15:03):

but still United States is the number one

Benyamin (00:15:06):

power in the world, but still US is not acting in a vacuum.

Benyamin (00:15:10):

So we saw how Trump tried to somehow come to some understanding with Russia,

Benyamin (00:15:15):

but at the end of the day,

Benyamin (00:15:16):

there is a Europe and Trump simply cannot say,

Benyamin (00:15:19):

or even if Trump would say that,

Benyamin (00:15:20):

okay,

Benyamin (00:15:21):

I don't care about Ukraine,

Benyamin (00:15:22):

but the Europe is ready to continue war to weaken Russia.

Benyamin (00:15:26):

So at the end of the day,

Benyamin (00:15:27):

we see that Trump said,

Benyamin (00:15:28):

okay, guys,

Benyamin (00:15:29):

if you want to weaken Russia and you are ready to continue the war,

Benyamin (00:15:33):

Then, okay, give me money, I will give you weapons.

Benyamin (00:15:36):

The current deal is this.

Benyamin (00:15:38):

Europe paying money to the United States,

Benyamin (00:15:41):

buying weapons from US,

Benyamin (00:15:42):

giving it to Ukrainians to kill Russians.

Benyamin (00:15:45):

I think from Trump's perspective, this is at least not bad.

Benyamin (00:15:50):

Of course, he would like to have some economic deals with Russia.

Benyamin (00:15:53):

But again, it's very difficult to have economic deals when war continues.

Benyamin (00:15:58):

And to be very frank, I don't see that Trump has real leverage to stop the war.

Benyamin (00:16:02):

Okay, maximum, Trump can say, okay, I will not even sell weapons to Europeans.

Benyamin (00:16:07):

Okay, I don't want even Europeans' money.

Benyamin (00:16:09):

But first, this is controversial to Trump's business or transactional approach.

Benyamin (00:16:14):

For example, if Europe is ready to pay billions or tens of billions of dollars to the United

Benyamin (00:16:18):

States, why say no?

Benyamin (00:16:20):

But frankly speaking,

Benyamin (00:16:21):

even if the US will stop selling weapons to Europe so that these weapons be

Benyamin (00:16:26):

delivered to Ukraine,

Benyamin (00:16:27):

I don't believe this means that Ukraine will be destroyed very quickly.

Benyamin (00:16:31):

Because at the end of the day, Europe is always starting to ramp up its military production.

Benyamin (00:16:37):

German companies, Polish companies.

Benyamin (00:16:40):

So from Trump's perspective,

Benyamin (00:16:42):

yes, if I have no chance,

Benyamin (00:16:44):

and Trump,

Benyamin (00:16:45):

I don't think Trump can force Zelensky in

Benyamin (00:16:48):

Europe to accept Russia's demands.

Benyamin (00:16:50):

We saw that in Alyaska,

Benyamin (00:16:52):

presumably,

Benyamin (00:16:53):

Trump and Putin agreed on something which more or less was in line with Russia's

Benyamin (00:16:57):

view.

Benyamin (00:16:58):

But then we saw that three days later,

Benyamin (00:17:00):

on August 18,

Benyamin (00:17:02):

Zelensky and the European leadership went to White House and effectively Trump was

Benyamin (00:17:07):

not in a position to force all of them

Benyamin (00:17:10):

I mean, UK Prime Minister,

Benyamin (00:17:11):

German Chancellor,

Benyamin (00:17:13):

Prime Minister of Italy,

Benyamin (00:17:14):

Prime Minister of Poland,

Benyamin (00:17:16):

etc., and President Zelensky.

Benyamin (00:17:18):

Even Trump has no power just to tell,

Benyamin (00:17:20):

okay,

Benyamin (00:17:21):

this is Mr. Putin's demand,

Benyamin (00:17:23):

sign on this, because I want this war stopped,

Benyamin (00:17:25):

because I want business with Russia.

Benyamin (00:17:26):

Trump cannot do that.

Hovik (00:17:28):

So staying on Trump's strategy a little bit.

Hovik (00:17:32):

Earlier this year,

Hovik (00:17:33):

the news cycle suggested that Trump wanted to scale back in the Middle East,

Hovik (00:17:37):

freeze the war in Ukraine,

Hovik (00:17:39):

and focus on China.

Hovik (00:17:40):

Then last week, Trump and President Xi of China met in South Korea.

Hovik (00:17:46):

And we're hearing all glowing remarks and praising of each other.

Hovik (00:17:51):

At the same time, US appears to be poised to attack Venezuela.

Hovik (00:17:58):

And while these issues are far from Armenia,

Hovik (00:18:00):

I think it's important for an Armenian expert to provide their voice on this.

Hovik (00:18:05):

How do you explain the other parts of Trump's strategy that we didn't yet cover?

Hovik (00:18:13):

What is Trump doing in Venezuela and also how would that affect...

Hovik (00:18:19):

U.S.

Hovik (00:18:20):

priorities in Armenia if Trump gets overextended in Venezuela and other parts of the world?

Benyamin (00:18:27):

It's a good question about Venezuela.

Benyamin (00:18:30):

Frankly speaking, I'm not sure that Trump will do something like Iraq-style invasion and ground

Benyamin (00:18:37):

invasion because my feeling is that Trump's intuition tells that

Benyamin (00:18:41):

This ground invasion,

Benyamin (00:18:43):

nation building,

Benyamin (00:18:44):

democracy imposition,

Benyamin (00:18:45):

this ends very badly for everyone,

Benyamin (00:18:47):

including the United States.

Benyamin (00:18:48):

Let's not forget that I think only in Afghanistan,

Benyamin (00:18:51):

US spent trillions of dollars for 20 years,

Benyamin (00:18:54):

and instead of having democratic Afghanistan,

Benyamin (00:18:57):

in August 2021,

Benyamin (00:18:59):

US was forced to flee from Afghanistan.

Benyamin (00:19:04):

Probably I don't exclude that there will be some military strikes against

Benyamin (00:19:07):

Venezuela,

Benyamin (00:19:08):

or I don't exclude even some special operations against Venezuelan leadership.

Benyamin (00:19:14):

Why Trump is doing this?

Benyamin (00:19:16):

Maybe he needs some boost to show that I'm making America great again,

Benyamin (00:19:21):

which means that...

Benyamin (00:19:22):

And also, let's not forget that at the end of the day,

Benyamin (00:19:25):

if Trump believes

Benyamin (00:19:28):

that a multipolar world is there,

Benyamin (00:19:30):

and he publicly stated this,

Benyamin (00:19:32):

and Marco Rubio stated that the unipolar world is ours,

Benyamin (00:19:34):

we are living in a multipolar world dominated by great powers.

Benyamin (00:19:38):

But if you believe in this concept, you also accept the concept of sphere of influence.

Benyamin (00:19:43):

Maybe you do not directly mention this.

Benyamin (00:19:46):

But from this perspective,

Benyamin (00:19:47):

if the US agrees that there will be few great powers like the US,

Benyamin (00:19:51):

China, Russia,

Benyamin (00:19:53):

and everyone should have its sphere of influence,

Benyamin (00:19:55):

then what is the natural sphere of influence of the United States?

Benyamin (00:19:59):

Let's jump back into the 19th century, Monroe Doctrine.

Benyamin (00:20:02):

So Western Hemisphere always was perceived as some sort of natural sphere of US influence.

Benyamin (00:20:12):

Yes, maybe from Trump's perspective,

Benyamin (00:20:15):

If China may have some sphere of influence in Asia,

Benyamin (00:20:17):

at least in its immediate neighborhood,

Benyamin (00:20:19):

like Myanmar, Cambodia,

Benyamin (00:20:20):

etc.

Benyamin (00:20:21):

If Russia may have some sort of sphere of influence in former Soviet space,

Benyamin (00:20:25):

then the US should have sphere of influence in the Western Hemisphere,

Benyamin (00:20:30):

which means that at least there should be either US-friendly or neutral regimes,

Benyamin (00:20:35):

while we all know that US-Venezuela relations are very complicated for the last 10

Benyamin (00:20:40):

years. Let's remember what happened with this opposition guy Guaido, whom

Benyamin (00:20:44):

America declared president and did everything to bring Guaido into the presidency.

Benyamin (00:20:50):

So explanation number one, somehow to boost

Benyamin (00:20:53):

his image among these MAGA supporters to show that yes,

Benyamin (00:20:57):

I make America great again and we are so strong that we can also impose our will on

Benyamin (00:21:02):

others,

Benyamin (00:21:03):

but without ground invasion,

Benyamin (00:21:04):

without nation building or democracy building.

Benyamin (00:21:07):

And B,

Benyamin (00:21:08):

from the perspective of the concept of great power competition and each great power

Benyamin (00:21:12):

should have its exclusive sphere of influence or zone of influence,

Benyamin (00:21:16):

then from this perspective Trump believes that okay,

Benyamin (00:21:19):

If at the end of the day,

Benyamin (00:21:20):

Russia was able to take Ukraine because Russia believes that Ukraine is a part of

Benyamin (00:21:23):

its sphere of influence as a former Soviet territory,

Benyamin (00:21:27):

then U.S. should have the right to take military action against Venezuela because Venezuela is part of

Benyamin (00:21:34):

Natural, fair influence of the United States.

Benyamin (00:21:36):

I see this in these two versions.

Benyamin (00:21:40):

Why Trump may take some military actions against Venezuela.

Benyamin (00:21:43):

But again,

Benyamin (00:21:44):

I will be surprised if we will see ground invasion like 2003 Iraq style and then

Benyamin (00:21:49):

occupation of Venezuela,

Benyamin (00:21:51):

deployment of 200,000 American troops and etc.

Benyamin (00:21:54):

Simply, I think that Trump will do everything to avoid this.

Asbed (00:21:57):

Okay, well, from Venezuela, I'm going to turn our attention to more domestic affairs.

Asbed (00:22:02):

From Venezuela to Armenia.

Asbed (00:22:05):

That's right.

Asbed (00:22:06):

Because over the past week,

Asbed (00:22:08):

tensions between Pashinyan's regime and the Armenian church have continued to

Asbed (00:22:11):

escalate,

Asbed (00:22:12):

Benjamin.

Asbed (00:22:13):

Yesterday,

Asbed (00:22:14):

Sunday, November 2nd,

Asbed (00:22:15):

Pashinyan and the civil contract members again attended defrocked priest Stepan

Asbed (00:22:20):

Asatryan's Sunday mass in Hovanavank.

Asbed (00:22:22):

And today...

Asbed (00:22:24):

Catholicos Garegin's brother and nephew were arrested,

Asbed (00:22:27):

allegedly for obstructing an election campaign.

Asbed (00:22:31):

For everyone else,

Asbed (00:22:32):

of course, this is just a continuing attack to weaken the church and subjugate it to this

Asbed (00:22:36):

regime.

Asbed (00:22:37):

In contrast to the Pashinyan show in Hovanavank,

Asbed (00:22:40):

other churches in Armenia held services on Sunday with a special prayer for the

Asbed (00:22:44):

hostages in Baku.

Asbed (00:22:45):

And as the church tries to regain control of its properties,

Asbed (00:22:49):

especially this issue,

Asbed (00:22:51):

the monastery,

Asbed (00:22:52):

which has been effectively seized by Pashinyan and his supporters,

Asbed (00:22:55):

the regime has stepped up arrests of people in the Catholic circle of trust,

Asbed (00:23:01):

probably in an effort to isolate him and disable him from running the church.

Asbed (00:23:07):

There are other Pashinyan cronies like Speaker Al and Simonian who are busy

Asbed (00:23:11):

justifying why Azerbaijani demands for changes of the Armenian constitution are

Asbed (00:23:16):

justified,

Asbed (00:23:17):

why it has a right to demand extraterritorial corridors through Armenia and why it

Asbed (00:23:21):

continues to hold Armenian hostages in Baku.

Asbed (00:23:24):

This is the Armenian speaker who's justifying Azerbaijani intransigence.

Asbed (00:23:30):

There's so much noise out there in the news.

Asbed (00:23:33):

Which of these stories is really important?

Asbed (00:23:36):

Which ones are just chaff?

Asbed (00:23:38):

Which ones are just noise, Benjamin?

Asbed (00:23:40):

We're referring to the church-state conflict and also the state justification of

Asbed (00:23:45):

Azerbaijani demands.

Asbed (00:23:47):

Are both of these important news or are we trying to make sure that people don't

Asbed (00:23:52):

really know what's going on?

Benyamin (00:23:55):

I would agree that there is like too much information noise in Armenia.

Benyamin (00:23:58):

I would assume maybe in the entire world due to this digital technology,

Benyamin (00:24:03):

like every person has a smartphone and the smartphone every day you can receive

Benyamin (00:24:07):

like

Benyamin (00:24:08):

not even gigabytes, I'm afraid, terabytes of information.

Benyamin (00:24:11):

So we all are under the constant bombardment of information, like 24-7 news cycle.

Benyamin (00:24:18):

And we should understand that for every person who have to sleep at least seven

Benyamin (00:24:23):

hours per day,

Benyamin (00:24:24):

has his personal life,

Benyamin (00:24:25):

has his family life,

Benyamin (00:24:27):

personal problems,

Benyamin (00:24:28):

family problems,

Benyamin (00:24:29):

or whatever problems,

Benyamin (00:24:30):

it's very difficult,

Benyamin (00:24:32):

and being constantly on the information attack,

Benyamin (00:24:34):

it's very difficult to understand what is really going on,

Benyamin (00:24:37):

who is right, who is wrong,

Benyamin (00:24:38):

because you constantly,

Benyamin (00:24:39):

about the same issue,

Benyamin (00:24:40):

you are hearing hundreds or thousands of controversial issues.

Benyamin (00:24:45):

Someone is telling, okay, this issue,

Benyamin (00:24:48):

This is A, this is B,

Benyamin (00:24:49):

this is C, and ordinary people,

Benyamin (00:24:50):

I would say even experts,

Benyamin (00:24:52):

sometimes you are overwhelmed and your brain just sometimes says,

Benyamin (00:24:56):

okay, let's talk because I cannot digest all this information.

Benyamin (00:25:00):

And if experts are in this situation whose professional job is to follow and try to

Benyamin (00:25:06):

understand what's happening on and analyze,

Benyamin (00:25:08):

we can understand how complicated

Benyamin (00:25:11):

This is for ordinary citizens who are teachers,

Benyamin (00:25:14):

engineers,

Benyamin (00:25:15):

IT specialists,

Benyamin (00:25:17):

taxi drivers,

Benyamin (00:25:19):

doctors,

Benyamin (00:25:20):

etc. But regarding the situation on church,

Benyamin (00:25:25):

my understanding is this,

Benyamin (00:25:26):

that first,

Benyamin (00:25:27):

the government,

Benyamin (00:25:28):

especially ahead of June 2026 elections,

Benyamin (00:25:32):

would like to control any institution which more or less has authority and also

Benyamin (00:25:38):

some power,

Benyamin (00:25:39):

at least moral power,

Benyamin (00:25:40):

in Armenia.

Benyamin (00:25:41):

And we all understand that Armenian Apostolic Church,

Benyamin (00:25:45):

regardless who perceives how Church activities or Church leadership activities,

Benyamin (00:25:53):

Armenian Apostolic Church is a formidable power,

Benyamin (00:25:56):

with this astonishing 1700 years of history and its role to support Armenian

Benyamin (00:26:03):

identity not only

Benyamin (00:26:05):

inside Armenia, but also outside Armenia.

Benyamin (00:26:08):

And as I think we discussed once in one of the shows that the fact that Armenians

Benyamin (00:26:18):

kept their identity while having no state for centuries,

Benyamin (00:26:23):

this was mostly due to the church.

Benyamin (00:26:25):

This is my belief that if no Armenian Apostolic Church,

Benyamin (00:26:30):

I'm afraid most probably we will have few Armenians now.

Benyamin (00:26:34):

Mostly Armenians will be assimilated in Europe,

Benyamin (00:26:37):

in Russia,

Benyamin (00:26:38):

I don't know, in India,

Benyamin (00:26:39):

in the United States,

Benyamin (00:26:41):

etc. So Armenian Apostolic Church is a significant power.

Benyamin (00:26:45):

its structure,

Benyamin (00:26:46):

its presence in Armenia and almost in all over the world,

Benyamin (00:26:51):

everywhere when there is a more or less organized Armenian diaspora.

Benyamin (00:26:55):

And my understanding is that the government would like to control this institution.

Asbed (00:26:59):

Do you believe that this drive to control the institution is purely an election

Asbed (00:27:06):

2026 issue,

Asbed (00:27:07):

or do you believe that they're externally instigated or mandated even on this

Asbed (00:27:12):

government?

Benyamin (00:27:13):

I'm not sure about externally mandated,

Benyamin (00:27:15):

but I don't think this is only election related,

Benyamin (00:27:18):

because we also see that the current government has launched some sort of identity

Benyamin (00:27:23):

engineering process or social engineering process.

Asbed (00:27:26):

Right, this whole real Armenia business.

Benyamin (00:27:27):

Yes, real Armenia with historical Armenia.

Benyamin (00:27:31):

So this is a government attempt.

Asbed (00:27:35):

I'm surprised he hasn't initiated a real church.

Benyamin (00:27:38):

Okay, maybe this will happen.

Benyamin (00:27:40):

Well, he has, I mean, effectively.

Benyamin (00:27:41):

Maybe this will happen.

Benyamin (00:27:42):

But if you want to transform your nation's identity...

Benyamin (00:27:47):

Again, for whatever reasons,

Benyamin (00:27:48):

because we may speculate about the reasons,

Benyamin (00:27:50):

but this is an area where everyone can have his personal opinion without real

Benyamin (00:27:54):

facts,

Benyamin (00:27:55):

we all understand this.

Benyamin (00:27:56):

But, okay, as I mentioned, church is a significant part of the Armenian identity.

Benyamin (00:28:02):

So if you want to transform Armenian identity from A to B,

Benyamin (00:28:06):

you call it from historical Armenia to real Armenia,

Benyamin (00:28:09):

but let's call it from A to B.

Benyamin (00:28:11):

It means that,

Benyamin (00:28:12):

first of all,

Benyamin (00:28:13):

you should significantly weaken the pillars of identity I,

Benyamin (00:28:17):

because the identity should be weakened.

Benyamin (00:28:20):

Then you will be able to transform this weakened identity into something new.

Benyamin (00:28:25):

So from this perspective, I think the fight against the Armenian Apostolic Church, A,

Benyamin (00:28:31):

it's related with upcoming elections,

Benyamin (00:28:33):

of course, but B,

Benyamin (00:28:34):

it also related to this social engineering or identity engineering policy of the

Benyamin (00:28:40):

government. Like, let's create a new Armenian nation.

Benyamin (00:28:43):

But again,

Benyamin (00:28:44):

to create a new Armenian nation,

Benyamin (00:28:46):

first you should significantly weaken the pillars which form the so-called

Benyamin (00:28:52):

old or previous Armenian nation.

Benyamin (00:28:55):

And one of the pillars, one of the key pillars, is the Armenian Church.

Benyamin (00:28:58):

So you have to also weaken the Armenian Church.

Benyamin (00:29:00):

Otherwise, it will be extremely difficult to forge new identity.

Benyamin (00:29:05):

Again, regardless, you are doing this because your own belief

Benyamin (00:29:09):

or because you were advised by someone outside, or you were forced by someone outside.

Benyamin (00:29:14):

Again, I'm not sure that anyone can give a precise answer of the reasons.

Asbed (00:29:17):

Then, Benjamin, let me ask, why is a new Armenian identity necessary?

Asbed (00:29:21):

What's wrong with the old identity?

Benyamin (00:29:24):

Very good question.

Benyamin (00:29:25):

Very good question.

Benyamin (00:29:26):

For me,

Benyamin (00:29:27):

all this talk about real Armenia vs.

Benyamin (00:29:29):

historical Armenia is a really strange one,

Benyamin (00:29:31):

and also talks about the Fourth Republic.

Benyamin (00:29:33):

Because like...

Benyamin (00:29:35):

if we speak about numbers,

Benyamin (00:29:37):

then it means that what,

Benyamin (00:29:39):

like every new government can come and say,

Benyamin (00:29:41):

okay, I'm establishing fifth republic,

Benyamin (00:29:42):

sixth republic,

Benyamin (00:29:43):

seventh republic,

Benyamin (00:29:44):

we may end up with a very strange situation.

Benyamin (00:29:46):

But if you look what is government doing,

Benyamin (00:29:49):

and if you try to analyze the speeches of the leadership,

Benyamin (00:29:53):

including prime minister,

Benyamin (00:29:55):

they are telling that the old Armenian identity was shaped,

Benyamin (00:30:00):

or one of the pillars of old Armenian identity was

Benyamin (00:30:03):

like animosity or hatred or negative memories about Turkey and Azerbaijan.

Benyamin (00:30:10):

This is what I understand,

Benyamin (00:30:12):

that old are one of the key pillars or features of the Armenian identity.

Benyamin (00:30:17):

Let's not call them old, because there is no new.

Benyamin (00:30:19):

This is still Armenian identity.

Benyamin (00:30:21):

There is no new Armenian identity.

Benyamin (00:30:22):

So from the government point of view, as far as I understand,

Benyamin (00:30:26):

one of the key features of Armenian identity,

Benyamin (00:30:29):

or one of the key pillars which form Armenian identity,

Benyamin (00:30:32):

along with the Armenian Apostolic Church,

Benyamin (00:30:34):

for example,

Benyamin (00:30:35):

Armenian language,

Benyamin (00:30:36):

Armenian alphabet,

Benyamin (00:30:38):

is this negative perception about Turkey and Azerbaijan.

Benyamin (00:30:42):

Let's call it negative perception about Turkey and Azerbaijan.

Benyamin (00:30:45):

So from the government position, as far as I understand, they strongly believe

Benyamin (00:30:50):

that this negative perception about Turkey and Azerbaijan was imposed by outside

Benyamin (00:30:56):

powers,

Benyamin (00:30:57):

first of all by Russia,

Benyamin (00:30:58):

or maybe only by Russia,

Benyamin (00:31:00):

due to these colonial and colonialization efforts,

Benyamin (00:31:05):

or because Russia would like to use this policy of divide and rule,

Benyamin (00:31:09):

like put Armenians against Azerbaijanis and Turks,

Benyamin (00:31:12):

or Azerbaijanis and Turks against Armenians,

Benyamin (00:31:15):

to rule, and this is my understanding.

Benyamin (00:31:17):

So from their perspective,

Benyamin (00:31:19):

this negative perception of Azerbaijanis and Turks,

Benyamin (00:31:22):

this was imposed on Armenians by outside forces to serve outside powers' interests.

Benyamin (00:31:28):

So we need to change this

Benyamin (00:31:31):

identity or create new identity when there will be less or zero negative perception

Benyamin (00:31:36):

of Turkey and Azerbaijan to be able to overcome this colonial imposed identity.

Benyamin (00:31:44):

This is what I understand when I try to analyze the leadership

Hovik (00:31:48):

Is that a genuine position?

Hovik (00:31:51):

Because anyone can see that Armenian identity does not evolve in a vacuum and

Hovik (00:31:57):

Armenians have been massacred and genocided by Turkey.

Hovik (00:32:03):

So I personally think that any assertion that this anti-Turkish feeling was

Hovik (00:32:10):

instigated by the KGB is ridiculous at its face value to begin with.

Hovik (00:32:16):

So I think when we state that this is the perception of the Armenian government,

Hovik (00:32:22):

I think we also have to qualify,

Hovik (00:32:24):

does the Armenian government itself believe this,

Hovik (00:32:26):

or is this a propaganda line?

Hovik (00:32:28):

Because that raises a whole set of new questions, because if the Armenian government itself

Hovik (00:32:33):

is just towing this propaganda narrative without really believing in it,

Hovik (00:32:37):

which I firmly believe,

Hovik (00:32:39):

then is doing it for other reasons than just,

Hovik (00:32:41):

you know,

Hovik (00:32:42):

sort of innate belief and trying to bring peace.

Hovik (00:32:45):

Because I think that there is a lot of artificial aspects in all of these

Hovik (00:32:49):

narratives that we're seeing.

Hovik (00:32:51):

When we speak about Russia,

Benyamin (00:32:53):

and here probably I can speak also as a person who graduated from history,

Benyamin (00:32:59):

faculty of Yerevan State University,

Benyamin (00:33:02):

of course,

Benyamin (00:33:03):

All great powers,

Benyamin (00:33:06):

they are exploiting,

Benyamin (00:33:08):

they have exploited,

Benyamin (00:33:09):

they exploit and will exploit different perceptions among different nations.

Benyamin (00:33:15):

Here is a fact.

Benyamin (00:33:16):

And of course, both Russia, but also not Russia, also other great powers.

Hovik (00:33:21):

Let's look at Lusonia and Armenia, you know.

Benyamin (00:33:22):

Yes, they definitely, they will exploit the conflicts or problems.

Benyamin (00:33:27):

perceptions.

Benyamin (00:33:28):

So,

Benyamin (00:33:29):

I think if we want to come as closer to the truth as is possible while we are

Benyamin (00:33:34):

discussing historical and identity issues,

Benyamin (00:33:37):

which at the end of the day they are subjective per se,

Benyamin (00:33:41):

but I would say that Russian Empire,

Benyamin (00:33:44):

then Soviet Russia,

Benyamin (00:33:46):

along with other great powers,

Benyamin (00:33:48):

not only

Benyamin (00:33:49):

Russian Empire and Soviet Russia,

Benyamin (00:33:51):

along with other great powers,

Benyamin (00:33:53):

exploited this negative perception about Turkey and Azerbaijan for their state

Benyamin (00:34:00):

interest,

Benyamin (00:34:01):

which is quite normal in geopolitical world.

Benyamin (00:34:03):

But I fully agree that to say that this negative perception against Ottoman Turks

Benyamin (00:34:11):

and Azerbaijanis were artificially infused or injected into Armenians,

Benyamin (00:34:18):

To argue this, it means to reject many historical facts.

Benyamin (00:34:24):

That is, negative attitude towards Turks and Azerbaijanis.

Benyamin (00:34:29):

They grow up among Armenian nations.

Benyamin (00:34:33):

Because of many objective realities,

Benyamin (00:34:35):

we can jump into the Hamidian massacres of the 19th century and come into the

Benyamin (00:34:40):

Armenian massacres in 1988 in Sumgait,

Benyamin (00:34:42):

in 1919 in Baku and , etc.

Benyamin (00:34:46):

From my perspective,

Benyamin (00:34:47):

the more or less truth is that all great powers,

Benyamin (00:34:51):

including Russian Empire,

Benyamin (00:34:52):

Soviet Union and currently Russian Federation,

Benyamin (00:34:56):

try and will try to exploit these perceptions,

Benyamin (00:35:01):

but they were not artificially injected or infused this perception.

Benyamin (00:35:05):

At least this is how I see this historical background.

Asbed (00:35:09):

Those are exactly the points I want to make that our perceptions,

Asbed (00:35:12):

our negative perceptions of Turkey or Turks come from centuries of oppression and a

Asbed (00:35:17):

genocide.

Asbed (00:35:18):

So unless Pashinyan is going to claim that the genocide was a Russian false flag

Asbed (00:35:23):

operation,

Asbed (00:35:24):

I just don't see him making any sense.

Asbed (00:35:28):

Yeah.

Hovik (00:35:29):

And I think it's worth also qualifying the level of...

Hovik (00:35:33):

this perception it's not just a perception like hey i have bad experience we have

Hovik (00:35:37):

the receipts in terms of missing grandparents so this is not something you can

Hovik (00:35:42):

engineer which is why i'm sort of in uh this belief that this is even possible to

Hovik (00:35:47):

do but the fact that the regime you mean it's even not possible to change identity

Hovik (00:35:53):

because yes because it's uh because it's part of our uh you know um genealogy part

Hovik (00:36:00):

of dna

Hovik (00:36:03):

Not just DNA, but my own family history.

Benyamin (00:36:05):

Like DNA from historical memory.

Benyamin (00:36:07):

I'm not thinking about the biological point of view, but more like memory.

Benyamin (00:36:12):

Because I would agree with you,

Benyamin (00:36:13):

because almost all Arminian families have these memories about their grandparents

Benyamin (00:36:18):

or maybe grand-grandparents.

Benyamin (00:36:20):

And at the end of the day,

Benyamin (00:36:22):

hundreds of thousands of Armenians went to Western Armenia as tourists from Armenia

Benyamin (00:36:26):

and also,

Benyamin (00:36:27):

I guess, from the U.S.

Benyamin (00:36:28):

or from Europe.

Benyamin (00:36:30):

And all we see is a memory of Armenians.

Benyamin (00:36:34):

And if you go into the Artsakh and Nagorno-Karabakh, even it's not like 100 years.

Benyamin (00:36:38):

It was only like... And it's not two years ago.

Benyamin (00:36:39):

There is a YouTube, everything is there.

Benyamin (00:36:42):

There was a Nagorno-Karabakh Republic,

Benyamin (00:36:44):

Armenian historical and Christian heritage,

Benyamin (00:36:47):

which unfortunately is...

Benyamin (00:36:48):

being destroyed by Azerbaijan after September 2023.

Hovik (00:36:52):

And it's not like our neighbors are saying, please, let's have peace.

Hovik (00:36:55):

We forgot everything about, like, let's forget everything.

Hovik (00:36:57):

We're sorry that we did this.

Asbed (00:36:59):

Let's reduce our defense spending.

Hovik (00:37:01):

Yeah, so let me,

Hovik (00:37:02):

then, this is a good segue into the next topic,

Hovik (00:37:04):

which is the topic of Azerbaijani demands,

Hovik (00:37:06):

which just keep piling on,

Hovik (00:37:08):

because,

Hovik (00:37:09):

you know,

Hovik (00:37:10):

we had Arthur Khachatryan last week in episode 481,

Hovik (00:37:14):

and he said that in addition to everything that he's doing

Hovik (00:37:17):

At home,

Hovik (00:37:18):

for these identity-shaping reasons,

Hovik (00:37:22):

whenever Pashinyan stirs trouble at home,

Hovik (00:37:24):

an external move often follows.

Hovik (00:37:27):

The campaign against the church began when Pashinyan went to Abu Dhabi,

Hovik (00:37:32):

and he had a nice five-hour tat-a-tat with Aliyev that appears to have set the

Hovik (00:37:39):

stage for the August 8th trip deal.

Asbed (00:37:42):

And by the way, with no witnesses.

Hovik (00:37:44):

Yeah, this is a one-on-one meeting.

Hovik (00:37:47):

I don't even know if translators were involved.

Hovik (00:37:50):

But in the background,

Hovik (00:37:52):

we know everything that has happened so far,

Hovik (00:37:54):

but we keep hearing in the news that this delimitation and demarcation process is

Hovik (00:38:01):

moving along.

Hovik (00:38:02):

In fact, Armenia is reporting intense contacts in this area.

Hovik (00:38:06):

And we know that Azerbaijan in the past has demanded...

Hovik (00:38:09):

enclaves from Armenia.

Hovik (00:38:11):

Something that they don't officially in Armenian media,

Hovik (00:38:15):

at least the official state-run media,

Hovik (00:38:18):

they don't talk about that much.

Hovik (00:38:20):

So let's just quickly focus on this.

Hovik (00:38:23):

How is the demarcation and delimitation process going?

Hovik (00:38:26):

And is it possible that sometime soon,

Hovik (00:38:29):

as the attacks against the church intensify,

Hovik (00:38:32):

we will hear more bad news from Pashinyan that he has agreed to see one or more

Hovik (00:38:36):

enclaves and

Hovik (00:38:39):

What other surprises can we expect?

Benyamin (00:38:42):

Okay,

Benyamin (00:38:43):

on delimitation and demarcation,

Benyamin (00:38:45):

my understanding is,

Benyamin (00:38:46):

to be very brief,

Benyamin (00:38:47):

A,

Benyamin (00:38:48):

I don't believe that as a result of delimitation and demarcation,

Benyamin (00:38:52):

Azerbaijan troops will withdraw from the Soviet Armenian territory,

Benyamin (00:38:56):

I'm emphasizing Soviet Armenian territory,

Benyamin (00:38:59):

which they occupied as a result of free incursions,

Benyamin (00:39:03):

May,

Benyamin (00:39:04):

November 2021, and September 2022.

Benyamin (00:39:05):

Again, I don't believe

Benyamin (00:39:09):

that as a result of the limitation and demarcation process,

Benyamin (00:39:12):

even if it will take decades,

Benyamin (00:39:15):

like let's assume 50 years from now,

Benyamin (00:39:16):

let's imagine we are in 2075,

Benyamin (00:39:19):

I will be extremely surprised that Azerbaijani troops will leave even one

Benyamin (00:39:23):

centimeter of any territory,

Benyamin (00:39:25):

which they now control,

Benyamin (00:39:26):

And I'm speaking about territories of former Soviet Armenia,

Benyamin (00:39:30):

which presumably was the base of this Alma Ata declaration and mutual recognition of

Benyamin (00:39:35):

territorial integrity,

Benyamin (00:39:36):

that everything which was Soviet Armenia should be Armenia,

Benyamin (00:39:39):

everything which was Soviet Azerbaijan should be Azerbaijan,

Benyamin (00:39:42):

which means that everything which is under Azerbaijani control,

Benyamin (00:39:45):

but which was part of Soviet Armenia,

Benyamin (00:39:48):

Azerbaijan should withdraw from these territories.

Benyamin (00:39:50):

This is not going to happen.

Benyamin (00:39:53):

This is my belief.

Benyamin (00:39:55):

Regarding your question about enclaves,

Benyamin (00:39:57):

both Prime Minister and also other leaders have publicly stated many times that

Benyamin (00:40:01):

yes,

Benyamin (00:40:02):

when they are asked,

Benyamin (00:40:04):

okay, what about these 200 square kilometers of Armenian territory or Soviet-Armenia

Benyamin (00:40:08):

territory which is now under Azerbaijani occupation or more than 200 square

Benyamin (00:40:12):

kilometers of territories,

Benyamin (00:40:13):

they are publicly answering that yes,

Benyamin (00:40:15):

Azerbaijan controls some territories which are part of Armenia,

Benyamin (00:40:20):

but also we control some territories which were part of Soviet Azerbaijan.

Benyamin (00:40:24):

So the Armenian government explicitly are stating that yes,

Benyamin (00:40:27):

Armenia now controls some territories which were part of Soviet Azerbaijan and

Benyamin (00:40:31):

which are now currently Armenian recognized as part of Azerbaijan.

Benyamin (00:40:35):

So this is already the official position of Armenia,

Benyamin (00:40:37):

that yes,

Benyamin (00:40:38):

Azerbaijan controls part of Armenian territory,

Benyamin (00:40:41):

but also Armenia controls part of Azerbaijani territory.

Benyamin (00:40:44):

And when the Armenian government says that Armenia controls part of the Azerbaijani

Benyamin (00:40:49):

territory, they explicitly means these four enclaves,

Benyamin (00:40:52):

three in Tavush and one in Ararat region in Tigranashen,

Benyamin (00:40:56):

which is on the highway which connects Yerevan with Yeghegnadzor and further to Syunik

Benyamin (00:41:00):

and to the Iran border.

Benyamin (00:41:02):

What may happen with these enclaves?

Benyamin (00:41:05):

I don't know.

Benyamin (00:41:06):

Now, frankly speaking, option number one

Benyamin (00:41:09):

Azerbaijan may say,

Benyamin (00:41:10):

give me these four enclaves and I will give you Art of Ashen,

Benyamin (00:41:12):

because there was one enclave which was part of Soviet Azerbaijan but part of

Benyamin (00:41:16):

Soviet Armenia.

Benyamin (00:41:17):

This is option number one.

Benyamin (00:41:18):

Option number two,

Benyamin (00:41:19):

Azerbaijan may say,

Benyamin (00:41:20):

okay, give me one or two enclaves and now,

Benyamin (00:41:23):

and then we will discuss like swapping this another two enclaves with Artubashen,

Benyamin (00:41:27):

it is also an option.

Benyamin (00:41:30):

But regardless what our solutions will be,

Benyamin (00:41:33):

I just want to emphasize that Armenian government has already explicitly accepted

Benyamin (00:41:37):

that currently Armenian controls Azerbaijani territories.

Benyamin (00:41:40):

But I think the problem here is that by telling this Armenian government somehow

Benyamin (00:41:46):

puts the sign of

Benyamin (00:41:48):

equality between the territories,

Benyamin (00:41:50):

which were occupied by Azerbaijan as a result of incursions of 2021-2022,

Benyamin (00:41:54):

to these enclaves issues,

Benyamin (00:41:55):

which appeared in late 1980s-early 1990s.

Benyamin (00:42:01):

when Armenia took over these four villages,

Benyamin (00:42:04):

which were administratively part of Soviet Azerbaijan,

Benyamin (00:42:07):

and Azerbaijan took the Arta Vashen,

Benyamin (00:42:08):

which was administrative part of Soviet Armenia.

Benyamin (00:42:11):

I don't think that this is the right approach.

Benyamin (00:42:14):

Armenian government should not publicly accept that we are speaking about the same

Benyamin (00:42:19):

issues or about the equal issues.

Benyamin (00:42:21):

Yes, we control Azerbaijani enclaves from early 1990s, and this is the same,

Benyamin (00:42:26):

as Azerbaijan occupies part of Armenian territory after 2020,

Benyamin (00:42:31):

because this is a completely different context.

Benyamin (00:42:33):

If I was Armenian government, I would not put these two issues into the same level.

Benyamin (00:42:38):

The same way as we should not put into the same level the issue of right of return

Benyamin (00:42:43):

of Armenians into Nagorno-Karabakh,

Benyamin (00:42:46):

to the broader issue of right of return of Armenians into Azerbaijan,

Benyamin (00:42:51):

who left Soviet Azerbaijan in late 1980s,

Benyamin (00:42:52):

early 1990s,

Benyamin (00:42:53):

and the issue of

Benyamin (00:42:56):

Azerbaijanis, return of Azerbaijanis, who left Soviet Armenia in late 1980s and early 1990s.

Benyamin (00:43:02):

These two issues,

Benyamin (00:43:03):

like people who left their homes in late 1980s,

Benyamin (00:43:08):

early 1990s from Armenian Azerbaijan,

Benyamin (00:43:11):

and the issue of Armenians who were ethnically cleansed in 2023 from

Benyamin (00:43:15):

Nagorno-Karabakh,

Benyamin (00:43:16):

Also, I don't think that we should put them at the same level.

Benyamin (00:43:20):

But unfortunately, we also see this,

Benyamin (00:43:22):

because many times we hear that the Armenian government is telling,

Benyamin (00:43:25):

look, if we will speak about right of return of Nagorno-Karabakh Armenians,

Benyamin (00:43:29):

Azerbaijan will raise the issue of right of return of those Azerbaijanis who left

Benyamin (00:43:34):

Soviet Armenia in late 1980s,

Benyamin (00:43:35):

early 1990s.

Benyamin (00:43:36):

I don't think that these two issues have anything in common.

Benyamin (00:43:41):

And the another problem is that while we are not speaking at the state level about

Benyamin (00:43:46):

right of return of Armenians into Artsakh,

Benyamin (00:43:51):

which were ethnically cleansed from there in September 2023,

Benyamin (00:43:54):

hoping that or we are not raising this issue because we are afraid of that

Benyamin (00:44:00):

Azerbaijan then will speak about right of return of Azerbaijanis who left Soviet

Benyamin (00:44:04):

Armenia in late 1980s,

Benyamin (00:44:05):

early 1990s.

Benyamin (00:44:08):

We are not raising the issue of Nagorno-Karabakh Armenians,

Benyamin (00:44:10):

but Azerbaijan continues to raise the issue of so-called Western Azerbaijan and

Benyamin (00:44:14):

draft the right of return of Azerbaijanis into current Armenia.

Benyamin (00:44:19):

On November 3rd,

Benyamin (00:44:21):

when President Aliyev went to celebrate the 80th anniversary of the establishment

Benyamin (00:44:27):

of Azerbaijani National Academy of Sciences and made the speech,

Benyamin (00:44:31):

President Aliyev clearly stated on November 3,

Benyamin (00:44:34):

2025, that yes,

Benyamin (00:44:36):

Azerbaijanis have the right to return to their historical lands,

Benyamin (00:44:40):

to so-called present Armenia,

Benyamin (00:44:43):

that all the toponyms of current present Armenia,

Benyamin (00:44:45):

like 100 years ago,

Benyamin (00:44:47):

all toponyms,

Benyamin (00:44:48):

they were Azerbaijani,

Benyamin (00:44:49):

then there is no Lake Sevan,

Benyamin (00:44:51):

Lake Sevan is an artificial name,

Benyamin (00:44:53):

the real name is Goycha,

Benyamin (00:44:55):

and that Armenians should accept and should not be afraid of the return of hundreds

Benyamin (00:44:59):

of thousands of Azerbaijanis,

Benyamin (00:45:00):

because they will not return by tanks,

Benyamin (00:45:02):

but they will return by cars.

Benyamin (00:45:04):

So it is a really strange situation.

Benyamin (00:45:08):

Our government is telling,

Benyamin (00:45:09):

oh,

Benyamin (00:45:10):

we should not speak about the right of return of Nagorno-Karabakh Armenians,

Benyamin (00:45:14):

who were ethnically cleansing two years ago.

Benyamin (00:45:16):

Because if we do that,

Benyamin (00:45:20):

then Azerbaijan will raise the issue of right of return of Azerbaijanis who left

Benyamin (00:45:24):

Soviet Armenia like 35 years ago.

Benyamin (00:45:27):

But despite we are silent on Nagorno-Karabakh Armenians,

Benyamin (00:45:31):

Azerbaijanis are not silent about Azerbaijanis who left Soviet Armenia,

Benyamin (00:45:36):

while we're not speaking at all about half million Armenians who left Soviet

Benyamin (00:45:41):

Azerbaijan in late 1980s,

Benyamin (00:45:43):

early 1990s. Let's not forget that 300,000 Armenians were in Baku,

Benyamin (00:45:47):

and additionally at least 200,000 Armenians in other Azerbaijani territories.

Hovik (00:45:52):

So what does this say about the intention of the Azerbaijani side if we're talking

Hovik (00:45:56):

about all these issues?

Hovik (00:46:00):

How serious is Azerbaijan about doing this?

Hovik (00:46:04):

Do you think this is just to rile up the Armenians?

Hovik (00:46:10):

Is Azerbaijan serious about negotiations or does Aliyev actually believe that he will be able to

Hovik (00:46:16):

settle, not resettle, but settle Armenia with so-called Azerbaijani refugees.

Hovik (00:46:23):

And how many are we talking about?

Benyamin (00:46:25):

Okay, there are different numbers.

Benyamin (00:46:27):

Some speak about hundreds of thousands.

Benyamin (00:46:29):

Even I heard numbers of one million or even more than one million.

Benyamin (00:46:32):

But my understanding is that this is Azerbaijani strategy.

Benyamin (00:46:36):

And they will do everything to reach that goal.

Benyamin (00:46:38):

I'm not sure about time frame, I'm not sure about their planning.

Benyamin (00:46:41):

They hope to reach their goal in the next 10 years or next 50 years, I have no idea.

Benyamin (00:46:46):

But for me it's very clear that Azerbaijan has a strategic goal of fettling

Benyamin (00:46:51):

Azerbaijanis as much as possible into Armenia.

Benyamin (00:46:56):

and somehow like creating,

Benyamin (00:46:58):

probably at the end of the day,

Benyamin (00:46:59):

creating some sort of Azerbaijani autonomy inside Armenia.

Benyamin (00:47:04):

But settling Azerbaijan into Armenia, I think this is a strategic goal of Azerbaijan.

Benyamin (00:47:09):

And this is not just the card to force Armenia to forget about ethnic cleansing,

Benyamin (00:47:16):

which happened in 2023,

Benyamin (00:47:18):

or accept to close the chapter of Nagorno-Karabakh.

Benyamin (00:47:20):

Because look, current government publicly accepted the closure of Nagorno-Karabakh chapter.

Benyamin (00:47:25):

current government publicly stating that it's not part of our foreign policy and

Benyamin (00:47:30):

our agendas or right of return or return of Nagorno-Karabakh Armenians into

Benyamin (00:47:34):

Nagorno-Karabakh.

Benyamin (00:47:35):

This was publicly stated multiple times.

Benyamin (00:47:38):

But despite these multiple public statements, Azerbaijan

Benyamin (00:47:42):

at the highest level,

Benyamin (00:47:43):

including President Aliyev,

Benyamin (00:47:45):

continues to aggressively push forward the concept of Western Azerbaijan.

Benyamin (00:47:50):

And not only speaking in Baku,

Benyamin (00:47:52):

but also organizing conferences in different European capitals about Western

Benyamin (00:47:56):

Azerbaijan,

Benyamin (00:47:57):

about right of return of Azerbaijani.

Benyamin (00:47:59):

So it's not only talk, it's resources.

Benyamin (00:48:02):

Because Azerbaijani government is putting money to send its experts to various

Benyamin (00:48:07):

European or even South American capitals,

Benyamin (00:48:11):

to organizing workshops to probably pay some Western or whatever experts to come

Benyamin (00:48:16):

and speak about the Azerbaijani genocide in Khojaly,

Benyamin (00:48:19):

about Azerbaijani ethnic cleansing in Soviet Armenia,

Benyamin (00:48:21):

about the right of return of Azerbaijanis,

Benyamin (00:48:24):

etc. So the Azerbaijani government is very serious and they are spending money.

Benyamin (00:48:28):

This is also an indicator, because if the government is spending money,

Benyamin (00:48:33):

And I believe that President Aliyev is a businessman,

Benyamin (00:48:35):

let's not forget that he's a billionaire in him himself.

Benyamin (00:48:38):

He knows very well what does it mean to spend money and why spend money.

Benyamin (00:48:42):

Probably he will not spend money on things which he does not believe at all.

Asbed (00:48:46):

Benjamin,

Asbed (00:48:47):

last week there was a second-track diplomacy negotiation in Yerevan,

Asbed (00:48:50):

which sort of flared up in a little bit of a scandal.

Asbed (00:48:53):

One of the participants in this forum was an employee of Aliyev-funded,

Asbed (00:48:57):

fake so-called eco-activists who participated in the nine-month blockade of

Asbed (00:49:02):

Artsakh, starving Artsakh Armenians.

Asbed (00:49:05):

In the past, you have occasionally participated in second-track diplomacies and fora outside of

Asbed (00:49:11):

Armenia.

Asbed (00:49:12):

Were you aware of this and did you participate?

Asbed (00:49:15):

Who took part in it?

Asbed (00:49:16):

What have you heard about this?

Benyamin (00:49:19):

No, I was not aware of it.

Benyamin (00:49:21):

I know about it by the press release.

Benyamin (00:49:24):

I think it was issued on October 20 or October 21.

Benyamin (00:49:27):

Like for two days,

Benyamin (00:49:29):

there will be Azerbaijani experts,

Benyamin (00:49:31):

civil society organization representatives coming to Armenia.

Benyamin (00:49:35):

And then we saw this special Azerbaijani, I think it was like charter flight.

Benyamin (00:49:40):

this Azerbaijani airplane landing in Armenia,

Benyamin (00:49:44):

and then I saw from media the photos of the participants,

Benyamin (00:49:47):

and also I think there was a meeting with the Secretary of Security Council.

Benyamin (00:49:52):

And I believe on November 3rd,

Benyamin (00:49:53):

the Secretary of Security Council,

Benyamin (00:49:54):

while taking part in some conference in Brussels,

Benyamin (00:49:58):

stated that very soon

Benyamin (00:50:00):

also Armenian experts or representatives of the Armenian civil society

Benyamin (00:50:03):

organizations will go to Baku and these visits will continue.

Benyamin (00:50:09):

They will meet not only in Tbilisi or in European capitals, but also in Yerevan and Baku.

Benyamin (00:50:15):

I was not aware of it, but two things about this.

Hovik (00:50:19):

Can I just mention that the Secretary of the Security Council is from Artsakh

Hovik (00:50:24):

himself and he apparently green-lighted the presence of this fake eco-activist who

Hovik (00:50:34):

blockaded Artsakh for nine months before it was depopulated.

Hovik (00:50:38):

Sorry, I just wanted to add that context and please go on.

Benyamin (00:50:42):

Okay, my understanding is that usually in this type of visits there should be some

Benyamin (00:50:46):

background check.

Benyamin (00:50:47):

I think this is a basic thing which even not very powerful states like Armenia should do.

Benyamin (00:50:53):

I do not have precise information,

Benyamin (00:50:56):

but I may assume,

Benyamin (00:50:57):

again,

Benyamin (00:50:58):

this is my personal assumption,

Benyamin (00:50:59):

that probably the Azerbaijani delegation put a condition that if you want us to

Benyamin (00:51:06):

come to Yerevan and meet with you,

Benyamin (00:51:09):

then you should have no veto power over the delegation.

Benyamin (00:51:13):

So we will bring whomever we want.

Benyamin (00:51:16):

So this is our condition.

Benyamin (00:51:17):

Either you are accepting whoever is coming or we are not coming.

Benyamin (00:51:21):

This is my assumption that this was a condition.

Benyamin (00:51:25):

And frankly speaking,

Benyamin (00:51:27):

if I was among the decision makers,

Benyamin (00:51:30):

I would not accept this type of condition.

Benyamin (00:51:33):

I would say, okay, guys,

Benyamin (00:51:35):

Really, we are very happy.

Benyamin (00:51:36):

We really appreciate confidence building measures,

Benyamin (00:51:39):

like efforts to somehow to create like a basic trust after they certify for even

Benyamin (00:51:44):

longer years of conflict.

Benyamin (00:51:46):

But I cannot accept these conditions that you can bring anyone whom you want

Benyamin (00:51:50):

because,

Benyamin (00:51:51):

sorry,

Benyamin (00:51:52):

these times they brought a fake eco-activist.

Benyamin (00:51:55):

What if next time they will bring a former soldier who committed like violent acts against

Benyamin (00:52:01):

Armenian prisoners of war, for example, I'm telling.

Benyamin (00:52:04):

So, again,

Benyamin (00:52:05):

if I was among decision makers,

Benyamin (00:52:07):

which apparently I was not,

Benyamin (00:52:08):

as I mentioned,

Benyamin (00:52:09):

I knew about all this from media like anyone else,

Benyamin (00:52:12):

I would say, okay,

Benyamin (00:52:13):

if the condition is we are bringing anyone whom we want or we are not coming,

Benyamin (00:52:17):

I would say,

Benyamin (00:52:19):

okay, guys,

Benyamin (00:52:20):

in this case, better you not come.

Benyamin (00:52:22):

This is my personal perception,

Benyamin (00:52:25):

because even if we speak about pure confidence from the perspective of confidence

Benyamin (00:52:30):

building, and yes,

Benyamin (00:52:31):

you mentioned I was part of these confidence building meetings for probably the

Benyamin (00:52:34):

last 10 years.

Benyamin (00:52:35):

I met Azerbaijanis before the 2020 war,

Benyamin (00:52:38):

I met in the period between November 2020 and September 2023,

Benyamin (00:52:43):

and also I continued to meet them in Tbilisi and in some European capitals after

Benyamin (00:52:47):

September 2023.

Benyamin (00:52:49):

But so I more or less understand what does it mean to create trust or these

Benyamin (00:52:53):

confidence building measures.

Benyamin (00:52:54):

But if you are bringing a person who took part in imposing a blockade on

Benyamin (00:53:01):

Nagorno-Karabakh Armenians,

Benyamin (00:53:03):

like I'm not a legal expert,

Benyamin (00:53:04):

but I may assume that this was a violation of even international humanitarian law.

Benyamin (00:53:09):

Let's forget about like Armenian personal or national perceptions,

Benyamin (00:53:13):

which ended at the end of the day with ethnic cleansing of

Benyamin (00:53:17):

Armenians.

Benyamin (00:53:18):

And if this person comes to Armenia, I don't think that this adds to the confidence building.

Benyamin (00:53:23):

I'm afraid this even has a negative impact.

Benyamin (00:53:27):

Because what ordinary citizen?

Benyamin (00:53:28):

Because confidence building measures is not about experts.

Benyamin (00:53:31):

Experts are a very small number of people.

Benyamin (00:53:34):

We live in our bubble.

Benyamin (00:53:36):

I would say that maximum 15 names,

Benyamin (00:53:40):

Armenians and Azerbaijanis,

Benyamin (00:53:41):

who are meeting each other more or less regularly.

Benyamin (00:53:45):

I can name all 15 Armenians,

Benyamin (00:53:47):

I can name all 15 Azerbaijanis and probably now I can name like probably 50

Benyamin (00:53:51):

meetings which happened only in last one year.

Benyamin (00:53:53):

So this confidence building is not about ourselves because we know each other,

Benyamin (00:53:58):

we try to better understand each other's position and etc.

Benyamin (00:54:00):

Confidence building is for wider society.

Benyamin (00:54:04):

And frankly speaking, I have great doubts that wider society, while watching this lady

Benyamin (00:54:10):

coming to Yerevan and meeting high-level Armenian officials will get some more

Benyamin (00:54:14):

confidence or trust toward Azerbaijanis.

Asbed (00:54:16):

That's right.

Asbed (00:54:17):

I agree with you.

Asbed (00:54:18):

And I think many of those eco-activists were found to be employees of their foreign

Asbed (00:54:23):

ministry, their spy agencies and such.

Asbed (00:54:25):

So it sort of proves the point that such a person would come and meet with the

Asbed (00:54:30):

chair of the National Security Committee.

Benyamin (00:54:33):

Or Secretary of Security Council.

Asbed (00:54:35):

That's what I meant to say.

Asbed (00:54:36):

Sorry.

Asbed (00:54:37):

Okay, well, that's all the time we have for our topics.

Asbed (00:54:41):

I'd like to ask each of you if there is something you'd like to share with the

Asbed (00:54:45):

listeners that's on your mind.

Asbed (00:54:47):

Benjamin, what's on your mind?

Benyamin (00:54:49):

I think we,

Benyamin (00:54:52):

I mean like Armenian nation or politically active part,

Benyamin (00:54:56):

should be very careful,

Benyamin (00:54:57):

especially after August 2025,

Benyamin (00:55:00):

because at the end of the day,

Benyamin (00:55:01):

we have both opportunities and challenges,

Benyamin (00:55:03):

but we should be very careful and concentrated.

Benyamin (00:55:08):

and not to jump into some false wishful thinking,

Benyamin (00:55:13):

to understand the situation in real terms and to see what are the challenges,

Benyamin (00:55:19):

what are the threats and what we can do at least to decrease the level of threats.

Asbed (00:55:23):

Okay, Hovik, something on your mind?

Hovik (00:55:26):

So I've been meaning to,

Hovik (00:55:28):

well, I have deliberately not talked about this publicly,

Hovik (00:55:32):

but I think that the issue can no longer be kept in the bag.

Hovik (00:55:37):

You know, I'm reading this press release from the Jerusalem Patriarchate,

Hovik (00:55:43):

and I'm glad to hear that at least Archbishop Nurhan Manougian

Hovik (00:55:47):

is fully supporting the Catholicos of all Armenians in the face of all these

Hovik (00:55:52):

persecutions you know we'll leave aside everything else happening in the Jerusalem

Hovik (00:55:56):

patriarchy and how we got in that mess to begin with but at least this is a welcome

Hovik (00:56:02):

position in my opinion what we haven't been hearing enough of is statements from

Hovik (00:56:09):

Aram Vehapar from the great house of Cilicia

Hovik (00:56:13):

and it's troubling to be honest and whenever we've been hearing those statements

Hovik (00:56:18):

they have been ambiguous to begin with you know we've had uh arm Catholicos sent a

Hovik (00:56:25):

delegation to armenia even to meet with pashinyan and apparently to present gifts

Hovik (00:56:31):

to pashinyan even though they later denied that they were specifically there to

Hovik (00:56:36):

present gifts

Hovik (00:56:37):

But, you know, I just have to ask, what is the intention of Aram Vehapar in doing all of these?

Hovik (00:56:44):

And it really sends the wrong message.

Hovik (00:56:46):

And I hope that our compatriots who are,

Hovik (00:56:50):

you know,

Hovik (00:56:51):

attending the Antelias Church,

Hovik (00:56:53):

the Antelias wing of the Armenian Church,

Hovik (00:56:55):

can raise this issue with the Vehapar because in the end this attack is not going

Hovik (00:57:02):

to be isolated against the Catholicos in Yerevan but against the entire Armenian

Hovik (00:57:08):

identity including that which is promulgated by the Great House of Cilicia.

Asbed (00:57:15):

On my part

Asbed (00:57:17):

In light of our discussion earlier about Trump-Putin discussions and nuclear

Asbed (00:57:22):

testing and such,

Asbed (00:57:23):

I just want to mention that last night on a friend's recommendation,

Asbed (00:57:27):

I saw a Netflix movie called House of Dynamite,

Asbed (00:57:30):

which is an updated version,

Asbed (00:57:32):

a modernized version of the movie Failsafe from 1964,

Asbed (00:57:36):

which was later parodied in Dr.

Asbed (00:57:38):

Strangelove,

Asbed (00:57:40):

Stanley Kubrick's take on Failsafe.

Asbed (00:57:43):

It's an interesting movie,

Asbed (00:57:45):

which shows how close we can come to the brink of a nuclear Holocaust and how

Asbed (00:57:52):

fragile peace is in the world.

Asbed (00:57:56):

Okay.

Asbed (00:57:57):

Thank you, Benjamin, for joining us today.

Asbed (00:57:59):

We appreciate your time and your insight.

Benyamin (00:58:02):

Thank you, Asbed. Thank you, Hovik.

Benyamin (00:58:03):

Thanks for having me.

Benyamin (00:58:04):

Always a pleasure.

Benyamin (00:58:06):

Thank you.

Asbed (00:58:07):

Okay, that was our Week in Review show, recorded on November 3rd, 2025.

Asbed (00:58:11):

We've been talking with Benyamin Poghosyan, who is a senior fellow at APRI Armenia.

Asbed (00:58:17):

This is a Yerevan-based think tank,

Asbed (00:58:19):

and he's also the chairman of the Center for Political and Economic Strategic

Asbed (00:58:23):

Studies.

Asbed (00:58:24):

For more information, you can go to our show notes, podcasts.groong.org/episode-number.

Asbed (00:58:30):

Click on the links.

Asbed (00:58:31):

You'll have that.

Hovik (00:58:33):

And folks, don't forget to like,

Hovik (00:58:35):

comment, share,

Hovik (00:58:36):

and also make sure while you're doing that,

Hovik (00:58:39):

that you're subscribed to our YouTube channel.

Hovik (00:58:41):

And we'd appreciate any support that you can give.

Hovik (00:58:45):

If you have financial means, then please consider donating.

Hovik (00:58:49):

podcasts.groong.org/donate and this all goes towards improving our reach and

Hovik (00:58:57):

producing more content efficiently letting us sleep longer and also bringing you

Hovik (00:59:03):

great content and we'd appreciate your help in doing that

Asbed (00:59:06):

You know, what's funny about the subscribe,

Asbed (00:59:08):

we always forget to tell people to subscribe to our channel.

Asbed (00:59:12):

We focus on the comment,

Asbed (00:59:14):

share and like,

Asbed (00:59:15):

and the reality is I think our statistics indicate that it's only a minority of the

Asbed (00:59:20):

viewers who are subscribers.

Asbed (00:59:22):

They get it through the YouTube algorithm or something like that.

Asbed (00:59:26):

So if let's say all of the listeners were subscribers would probably have like 30,

Asbed (00:59:31):

40,

(00:59:32):

50,000 subscribers.

Hovik (00:59:34):

Anyway, we're getting close to 13,000 subscribers.

Hovik (00:59:37):

I want to give a special thanks to all those who have subscribed and we're growing

Hovik (00:59:43):

our channel and I feel proud and happy about that.

Hovik (00:59:47):

And thank you.

Asbed (00:59:50):

Well, Hovig, I'm a real Armenian Asbed Bedrossian in Los Angeles.

Hovik (00:59:57):

Well, and I'm Hovik Manucharyan in Los Angeles for a few more weeks.

Hovik (01:00:03):

Looking forward to finally to be back home in Yerevan.

Hovik (01:00:07):

And, you know, thank you for listening and have a nice day.

Hovik (01:00:12):

Yep. We'll talk to you next week.

Asbed (01:00:14):

Bye-bye.

Head Shot

Asbed Bedrossian

Co-host
Head Shot

Hovik Manucharyan

Co-host
Head Shot

Benyamin Poghosyan

Guest

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