Armenian News Network - Groong: Week In Review Podcast

Garen Jinbachian: OSCE HD Conference: Impunity in Baku, Repression in Yerevan | Ep 489, Nov 26, 2025

• Armenian News Network / Groong • Episode 489

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Conversations on Groong - November 26, 2025

Topics:

  • Azerbaijan’s war crimes and impunity
  • Sham trials of Artsakh leaders
  • Silence of the OSCE and the West
  • Armenia’s growing political repression
  • Attacks on the Armenian Church

Guest: Garen Jinbachian

Hosts:

Episode 489 | Recorded: November 23, 2025

SHOW NOTES: https://podcasts.groong.org/489

VIDEO: https://youtu.be/uwn6cFzDpAo

#ArtsakhJustice #HumanRights #OSCE #Armenia #Azerbaijan #PoliticalPrisoners


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Asbed (00:00:04):

Hello everyone, and welcome to this Conversations on Groong episode.

Asbed (00:00:08):

Today, we look at the wider collapse of democratic norms in the South Caucasus.

Asbed (00:00:12):

Azerbaijan's war crimes and political persecutions go unpunished,

Asbed (00:00:16):

and the former Artsakh leaders in Baku's jails and kangaroo courts are only one

Asbed (00:00:20):

aspect of that.

Asbed (00:00:22):

Inside Armenia,

Asbed (00:00:23):

the Pashinyan government now mirrors many of Aliyev's methods,

Asbed (00:00:27):

from jailing opposition figures to attacking the Armenian church,

Asbed (00:00:30):

all while the West looks away.

Asbed (00:00:32):

We are joined by Garen Jinbachian,

Asbed (00:00:34):

Community Relations Officer for the ANCA Western Region,

Asbed (00:00:38):

who has been raising these concerns in international forums.

Hovik (00:00:42):

Before we begin, a quick note.

Hovik (00:00:44):

If you value independent coverage of human rights,

Hovik (00:00:46):

political repression,

Hovik (00:00:48):

and the status of democracy in our region,

Hovik (00:00:51):

please consider supporting Groom.

Hovik (00:00:53):

Your support helps us keep these conversations going and reaching more people.

Hovik (00:00:58):

And please like, comment, and share this episode.

Hovik (00:01:01):

It helps amplify our voice at a time when these topics often get pushed aside.

Hovik (00:01:07):

The link for donations is podcasts.groong.org/donate.

Hovik (00:01:12):

And thank you for all of those generous people who have donated to us in the past.

Asbed (00:01:16):

Garen Jinbachian, welcome to the Groong Podcast.

Garen (00:01:19):

Thank you. It's a pleasure being here.

Garen (00:01:21):

Thank you for having me.

Hovik (00:01:22):

Yeah, welcome, Garen.

Garen (00:01:23):

Nice to have you.

Garen (00:01:25):

Thank you so much, Hovik jan.

Asbed (00:01:27):

Garen, since this is your first time on our show,

Asbed (00:01:29):

please give us a little bit of a brief on your work on behalf of the human rights

Asbed (00:01:33):

of Armenians globally as part of your position with the ANCA.

Garen (00:01:38):

I am very happy to say that I've not had a long run in the ANCA,

Garen (00:01:42):

but I've had a very long run in anything and everything to do with Armenian

Garen (00:01:47):

organizational life.

Garen (00:01:49):

I was practically born into it,

Garen (00:01:51):

born and raised in Lebanon,

Garen (00:01:53):

so you get to live in that organizational sphere.

Garen (00:01:57):

where you uniquely interact with Armenians or majority interact with Armenians.

Garen (00:02:03):

Everything you do is in Armenian.

Garen (00:02:05):

You preserve the language, the culture, all of it.

Garen (00:02:08):

And so when we kind of moved to the United States,

Garen (00:02:14):

California was pretty much,

Garen (00:02:16):

you know,

Garen (00:02:17):

kind of on the same scale,

Garen (00:02:18):

but with its differences,

Garen (00:02:20):

of course.

Garen (00:02:21):

And I don't know, that spirit of...

Garen (00:02:26):

being in an Armenian community,

Garen (00:02:28):

always helping the community,

Garen (00:02:30):

putting whatever effort you can,

Garen (00:02:32):

whatever spare time you have into Armenian organizational life,

Garen (00:02:37):

kind of never left.

Garen (00:02:38):

Not with me, not with my family.

Garen (00:02:40):

And so I was fortunate enough that

Garen (00:02:43):

one of the board members of the ANC Western Region about a year ago,

Garen (00:02:47):

kind of found me at one of the protests happening in LA.

Garen (00:02:52):

We happened to be chatting, discussing this, that, whatever.

Garen (00:02:55):

And

Garen (00:02:58):

Evidently,

Garen (00:02:59):

we were kind of on the same path towards protecting Armenian human rights,

Garen (00:03:05):

protecting Armenian dignities,

Garen (00:03:07):

all of that.

Garen (00:03:08):

And so we had a similar worldview.

Garen (00:03:10):

And so that's kind of how I got involved in the Western region.

Garen (00:03:13):

I did an internship at the DC office.

Garen (00:03:16):

That's where I was quote unquote trained for the position.

Garen (00:03:20):

And then I came back here about a year ago to take on the community coordination

Garen (00:03:26):

task of this office.

Hovik (00:03:28):

Welcome on board and glad to have you participating in the ANCA,

Hovik (00:03:32):

which is a very important organization.

Hovik (00:03:34):

Thank you.

Hovik (00:03:36):

Mr. Jinbachian,

Hovik (00:03:37):

speaking on behalf of the ANCA,

Hovik (00:03:39):

Western Region,

Hovik (00:03:40):

at the recent OSCE event that was focusing on human rights,

Hovik (00:03:44):

you forcefully addressed the ongoing abuses against Armenian captives following the

Hovik (00:03:50):

2023 genocidal cleansing of Artsakh,

Hovik (00:03:53):

as you phrased it.

Hovik (00:03:55):

You documented evidence of torture,

Hovik (00:03:56):

coerced confessions,

Hovik (00:03:58):

and degrading treatment,

Hovik (00:03:59):

stating that these acts constitute a broader,

Hovik (00:04:02):

and I'm quoting,

Hovik (00:04:03):

a broader pattern of impunity,

Hovik (00:04:05):

a campaign of dehumanization meant to terrorize,

Hovik (00:04:08):

humiliate,

Hovik (00:04:09):

and erase.

Hovik (00:04:10):

You concluded your address with a stark warning asserting that Azerbaijan has not

Hovik (00:04:16):

only broken international law,

Hovik (00:04:17):

it has betrayed the very framework of collective security that this organization,

Hovik (00:04:23):

and by that you mean the OSCE,

Hovik (00:04:24):

was built to uphold.

Hovik (00:04:26):

So to begin with,

Hovik (00:04:28):

can you tell us more about this conference,

Hovik (00:04:32):

who attended it,

Hovik (00:04:33):

and with what expectations did you yourself attend?

Garen (00:04:38):

Yes.

Garen (00:04:39):

Okay,

Garen (00:04:40):

so the OSCE Human Dimension Conference is a yearly conference held in Warsaw,

Garen (00:04:47):

Poland,

Garen (00:04:48):

every year.

Garen (00:04:49):

And so every year during that time, all the OSCE delegation...

Garen (00:04:57):

are in one place trying to get some sort of a debate going or an update of sorts of

Garen (00:05:05):

the OSCE region and anything and everything that has to do with problems in the

Garen (00:05:11):

human dimension.

Garen (00:05:12):

Now, human dimension means human rights,

Garen (00:05:15):

freedom of speech,

Garen (00:05:17):

the works,

Garen (00:05:18):

all of it that,

Garen (00:05:19):

you know, we try to uphold in a way

Garen (00:05:23):

quote unquote Western civilization.

Garen (00:05:25):

And so that conference,

Garen (00:05:28):

that two week conference was attended by the delegation and members of civil

Garen (00:05:33):

society,

Garen (00:05:34):

usually NGOs,

Garen (00:05:36):

independent workers,

Garen (00:05:38):

media outlets,

Garen (00:05:40):

stuff like that.

Garen (00:05:41):

So we attended as part of an American NGO, which we are.

Garen (00:05:48):

And

Garen (00:05:51):

our point was to raise the issue of Artsakh,

Garen (00:05:54):

to let them know that Artsakh's,

Garen (00:05:56):

story did not reach its final chapter.

Garen (00:05:58):

This is not how this is supposed to end.

Garen (00:06:02):

And,

Garen (00:06:04):

unfortunately when I was,

Garen (00:06:06):

when I was there for the two weeks,

Garen (00:06:08):

I saw a lot of,

Garen (00:06:11):

Azeri presence.

Garen (00:06:12):

Now,

Garen (00:06:13):

mind you, I'm getting,

Garen (00:06:14):

I think this was the first time in my life being,

Garen (00:06:17):

in,

Garen (00:06:18):

in the same room with Azeris.

Garen (00:06:20):

That's not how I would have imagined it would be.

Garen (00:06:23):

But nevertheless,

Garen (00:06:25):

I don't know if this is related to that particular case that I was in the same room

Garen (00:06:31):

with them or not,

Garen (00:06:32):

but I fell ill for two weeks afterwards.

Garen (00:06:34):

So might be that.

Garen (00:06:35):

I don't know.

Garen (00:06:36):

The nefarious lies they were spreading must have caught on to me.

Garen (00:06:41):

But yes, so we did see a lot of Gongos,

Garen (00:06:45):

I think you say,

Garen (00:06:46):

like governmental NGOs of quotes,

Garen (00:06:49):

a lot of them kind of,

Garen (00:06:51):

you know,

Garen (00:06:52):

repeating the state's Aliev's rhetoric of saying,

Garen (00:06:57):

you know, Armenians are pests and they are war criminals.

Garen (00:07:03):

the ones that are held in baku right now are war criminals they are not just

Garen (00:07:07):

political captives they are not uh they should not be treated with mercy stuff like

Garen (00:07:12):

that and when you hear stuff like that when you constantly see and hear the people

Garen (00:07:18):

that you're trying to protect uh and the human the human lives you're trying to

Garen (00:07:22):

save

Garen (00:07:24):

be talked to in that manner,

Garen (00:07:28):

I don't think there's anything else you can do than just speak up,

Garen (00:07:33):

at least speak up,

Garen (00:07:35):

and at least put a very,

Garen (00:07:37):

if not aggressive,

Garen (00:07:38):

then a persuasive front to say,

Garen (00:07:41):

okay,

Garen (00:07:42):

this is an OSCE human dimension conference.

Garen (00:07:45):

The whole point of this conference is to defend human rights in that OSCE region.

Garen (00:07:51):

Then how is it that

Garen (00:07:53):

We're not saying anything.

Garen (00:07:54):

We're staying silent when these things are being shouted from rooftops.

Garen (00:08:02):

How is that possible?

Garen (00:08:03):

How are we not in a very hypocritical situation right now?

Garen (00:08:08):

So that's exactly what happened.

Garen (00:08:11):

The expectation of going to the OSCE was first that to keep the Artsakh story

Garen (00:08:16):

alive, to never let it rest,

Garen (00:08:18):

to have international monitoring organizations and bodies always speaking about

Garen (00:08:24):

Artsakh and the situation there.

Garen (00:08:26):

as well as getting some political help with other country delegations,

Garen (00:08:37):

spreading the word that these are some of the strategies that you might look to do

Garen (00:08:45):

in the near future to counter Azerbaijan to help Armenians back into Artsakh.

Hovik (00:08:52):

So you talked about Azerbaijani government NGOs.

Hovik (00:08:57):

Was anyone from the Republic of Armenia present?

Hovik (00:09:00):

In what capacity?

Garen (00:09:03):

Not as much as we would have hoped, but yes, there were some Armenians.

Garen (00:09:08):

Most of them have been,

Garen (00:09:09):

you know,

Garen (00:09:10):

with most we've had working relationships with other events or this is something

Garen (00:09:17):

that happens yearly.

Garen (00:09:18):

So there were some that were quite experienced in the OSCE's Human Dimension Conference.

Garen (00:09:24):

For example, we had from ALC and International Comparative Law in Yerevan.

Garen (00:09:33):

She came in her capacity as the executive director as well as the lawyer of

Garen (00:09:40):

the political prisoners in Baku.

Garen (00:09:44):

And so,

Garen (00:09:45):

yes,

Garen (00:09:46):

there were some Armenians present that we could have relied on to kind of echo the

Garen (00:09:51):

message of Armenians,

Garen (00:09:53):

of Artsakh.

Garen (00:09:54):

But unfortunately,

Garen (00:09:56):

A, there were not that many of them.

Garen (00:10:00):

There were just probably three or four NGOs as opposed to in the tens of Azeris that were present.

Garen (00:10:09):

And second of all, the fact that

Garen (00:10:14):

the Azeri state propaganda that was going on was something that was aided by the

Garen (00:10:21):

Azeri delegation.

Garen (00:10:22):

And you could see from the grin on the delegates face,

Garen (00:10:27):

from the reactions to every time one of these GoNGOs came out to speak,

Garen (00:10:33):

it was something well coordinated that was lacking on our side,

Garen (00:10:36):

unfortunately.

Hovik (00:10:38):

Okay.

Hovik (00:10:39):

And I think in your speech, I saw a, by the way, I saw a brief speech of yours.

Hovik (00:10:45):

I don't know if that was the extent of it or what other meetings you participated in.

Hovik (00:10:51):

But in that speech,

Hovik (00:10:52):

you said that the rule of law cannot coexist with selective justice,

Hovik (00:10:56):

which is what we're experiencing.

Hovik (00:10:58):

And I wanted to ask you, what concrete dangers does this selective justice

Hovik (00:11:06):

pose to credibility of international institutions like the OSCE when such brazen

Hovik (00:11:12):

defiance of norms and international rules gets swept under the carpet.

Garen (00:11:20):

Yeah,

Garen (00:11:21):

it is very unfortunate that it is the situation where values do not dictate

Garen (00:11:27):

policies,

Garen (00:11:28):

rather economic benefits and interests and political,

Garen (00:11:36):

socio-economical factors weigh in sometimes more than morals itself.

Garen (00:11:41):

And then there you have more relativism that comes into play.

Garen (00:11:46):

It's a really unfortunate situation to deal with because,

Garen (00:11:51):

and I wanted to get into this a bit later on,

Garen (00:11:53):

but I'll get into it now as well.

Garen (00:11:56):

You know, there are the three basic options

Garen (00:12:00):

types of arguments that you should have or the three pillars of an argument that

Garen (00:12:04):

you should have,

Garen (00:12:05):

you know, the ethos,

Garen (00:12:06):

pathos and logos situation.

Garen (00:12:09):

So in terms of like our arguments, pathos certainly does exist.

Garen (00:12:15):

Logos certainly does exist.

Garen (00:12:17):

Ethos certainly does exist,

Garen (00:12:19):

but there's one other factor that we have to consider is state interest,

Garen (00:12:23):

if they're interested in this or not.

Garen (00:12:25):

Unfortunately, for the time being, it doesn't really look the case.

Garen (00:12:30):

So our job is now to make it something that they want,

Garen (00:12:35):

to make it evident that defending Armenians and Armenians being on that land and

Garen (00:12:43):

owning that land because it's their sovereign right

Garen (00:12:47):

is something that would be beneficial to not only the OSCE, but its delegate members as well.

Garen (00:12:58):

And so that is pretty much the difficult part of this whole issue because in

Garen (00:13:09):

another unfortunate turn of events,

Garen (00:13:11):

the Armenian delegation was not helping at all.

Hovik (00:13:17):

Do you mean the official Armenian government delegation?

Garen (00:13:19):

Yes, yes, correct.

Asbed (00:13:22):

Because as far as I know, Siranush Sahakyan is not a part of the government.

Garen (00:13:26):

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

Garen (00:13:27):

The governmental delegation, I'm saying.

Garen (00:13:29):

No, she came in there as a civil society, just like myself.

Garen (00:13:34):

But the governmental delegation that was there did not help whatsoever.

Garen (00:13:40):

While we were raising issues of Artsakh,

Garen (00:13:43):

he was just rambling on about some generic speech or whatever.

Garen (00:13:50):

It's a very unfortunate situation to be dealing with,

Garen (00:13:53):

but all we can say is we hope that this is not too long and we can go about

Garen (00:13:58):

discussing the big issues and the important vital issues and just leave that for

Garen (00:14:05):

the rest of the folk who don't have an existential threat on their hands.

Asbed (00:14:09):

Garen,

Asbed (00:14:10):

given the current situation where,

Asbed (00:14:12):

as you mentioned,

Asbed (00:14:13):

the state interests are obviously dictating

Asbed (00:14:16):

the way that Europe is relating with Armenia and Azerbaijan.

Asbed (00:14:21):

Of course, they claim to assign great value to democracy and human rights and such,

Asbed (00:14:25):

but they have treated Azerbaijan's brutal dictatorship on the same level as

Asbed (00:14:29):

Armenia's.

Asbed (00:14:31):

Are these conversations had with the European states?

Asbed (00:14:35):

Because we know their public stance.

Asbed (00:14:37):

We know what, for example, Ursula von der Leyen says, or what Kaja Kalas says.

Asbed (00:14:42):

But when you have conversations with parliamentarians from Europe,

Asbed (00:14:46):

what kind of conversations are those?

Asbed (00:14:48):

Where do they really stand?

Asbed (00:14:49):

Do they actually stand by their values at all?

Garen (00:14:53):

Most of them on a personal level do.

Garen (00:14:55):

When you get to that kind of unofficial meeting type of thing,

Garen (00:15:00):

when you get in a more kind of not on a public stage,

Garen (00:15:07):

but you get...

Garen (00:15:09):

you get to see their human side.

Garen (00:15:11):

You get to see that they actually do think that this is wrong.

Garen (00:15:16):

They think that something very wrong is happening.

Garen (00:15:20):

And I don't know if that's comforting or even more enraging, or it should be even more...

Garen (00:15:29):

I don't know what to say, humiliating, vexing, whatever it might be.

Garen (00:15:33):

But you get to see that they personally do care.

Garen (00:15:39):

But something that has been said multiple times throughout these meetings with

Garen (00:15:47):

different delegations was that...

Garen (00:15:50):

How can we be the front runners of these issues, let's say, right?

Garen (00:15:55):

Putting pressure on Azerbaijan, putting pressure on Turkey, getting Armenians back into Artsakh.

Garen (00:16:02):

How can we be the front runner and not have the actual government of Armenia be the

Garen (00:16:10):

front runner of it?

Garen (00:16:11):

That's sort of most of the trepidation that we see,

Garen (00:16:15):

given the fact that the Armenian government is not advocating for that.

Garen (00:16:20):

The Armenian government is not putting a strong stance to further those pursuits.

Garen (00:16:26):

And so it becomes really difficult when you have to explain what the difference is

Garen (00:16:32):

exactly and why,

Garen (00:16:35):

you know,

Garen (00:16:37):

why our legitimacy and our credibility here matters and why this issue must not be

Garen (00:16:43):

thrown under the rug just because an Armenian government who happens to be in power

Garen (00:16:48):

at the moment,

Garen (00:16:49):

uh,

Garen (00:16:50):

an administration who happens to be at power at the moment,

Garen (00:16:53):

um,

Garen (00:16:55):

chooses to do so, right?

Garen (00:16:57):

And that's kind of the whole predicament.

Garen (00:16:59):

That's kind of the whole predicament that we're in.

Garen (00:17:02):

And so these meetings become more complicated and it's just how it is,

Garen (00:17:08):

unfortunately,

Garen (00:17:09):

for the time being.

Asbed (00:17:10):

You were saying we don't know exactly how to feel.

Asbed (00:17:13):

Well, I feel on that level,

Asbed (00:17:16):

unemotionally, I must say,

Asbed (00:17:18):

that Europe or the West is an unreliable partner.

Asbed (00:17:21):

I don't feel like they're humiliating or frustrating.

Asbed (00:17:24):

Of course, all of those feelings,

Asbed (00:17:25):

but beyond the feelings,

Asbed (00:17:27):

when they say,

Asbed (00:17:28):

for example,

Asbed (00:17:29):

trust us, we're going to help you,

Asbed (00:17:30):

we're going to help you do this,

Asbed (00:17:31):

achieve this, or whatever,

Asbed (00:17:33):

I can't trust these people because what they are saying and what they're doing do

Asbed (00:17:37):

not really match.

Asbed (00:17:38):

And then, of course, they stand up and call Aliyev a reliable partner.

Asbed (00:17:43):

Do you see what I mean?

Garen (00:17:46):

Yeah, it's the same.

Garen (00:17:48):

In politics, politics is a contact sport.

Garen (00:17:51):

You have to get hit every once in a while, right?

Garen (00:17:54):

And in my opinion, studying a bit of history, not really too much,

Garen (00:18:01):

But from what I can see, there's no reliable partner whatsoever.

Garen (00:18:07):

You can't have reliable partners in a political ideology,

Garen (00:18:12):

let's say,

Garen (00:18:13):

and much less right now when everything is governed by interest and economic

Garen (00:18:20):

benefit and all of that.

Garen (00:18:22):

Right. Right. Because let's face it,

Garen (00:18:25):

if you're doing business with one country,

Garen (00:18:27):

then suddenly another country becomes more beneficial for,

Garen (00:18:33):

I don't know,

Garen (00:18:34):

buying rice from.

Garen (00:18:36):

And it's cheaper.

Garen (00:18:37):

You don't have as many fees to pay, whatever it might be.

Garen (00:18:42):

You'll switch instantaneously.

Garen (00:18:44):

It all comes to zeros and ones at the end of the day.

Garen (00:18:47):

It's not...

Garen (00:18:49):

Unfortunately, it's not governed by moral politics anymore.

Garen (00:18:52):

Now, I don't know if history books were only written having that in mind or it was

Garen (00:18:56):

always like this.

Garen (00:18:59):

I leave that up to the historians to interpret.

Garen (00:19:02):

But the world we're seeing right now, the moral values mean absolutely nothing.

Garen (00:19:09):

It's just a bystander that gets,

Garen (00:19:12):

you know, it's a byproduct that makes,

Garen (00:19:15):

you know,

Garen (00:19:16):

morally sense for the West to say,

Garen (00:19:18):

you know, we're on the right side.

Garen (00:19:20):

But when it comes to our dollars,

Garen (00:19:21):

when it comes to our euros,

Garen (00:19:22):

when it comes to our gas,

Garen (00:19:23):

when it comes to our oil.

Asbed (00:19:26):

So do you see the West ever holding Azerbaijan accountable for its human rights violations?

Garen (00:19:32):

Yeah, it could.

Garen (00:19:33):

It could.

Garen (00:19:34):

But it's on us to make the environment right for that.

Garen (00:19:39):

And that is why organizations such as ours exist.

Garen (00:19:43):

It's not the fact that we're trying to do something that is undoable.

Garen (00:19:48):

There was a time where it was unimaginable that the United States would support a

Garen (00:19:57):

country like Azerbaijan.

Garen (00:19:59):

For example, it was unimaginable.

Garen (00:20:01):

There was a time in history.

Garen (00:20:03):

over Armenia.

Garen (00:20:04):

By defeating Armenia, you get to have Azerbaijani support.

Garen (00:20:09):

That was something that was unfathomable.

Garen (00:20:11):

But it happened because there were lots of forces that put a lot of work,

Garen (00:20:16):

a lot of lobbying into making that happen.

Garen (00:20:18):

The point of our organization and the point of all diasporan organizations such as

Garen (00:20:23):

these are to create that environment where it becomes beneficial for you to choose

Garen (00:20:28):

Armenian side over any other side.

Garen (00:20:30):

Because at the end of the day, that's what counts.

Hovik (00:20:35):

Okay, let's switch the topic a little bit, Garen.

Hovik (00:20:40):

Since 2020, Armenia has been in a continuous decline of democratic values.

Hovik (00:20:45):

I would argue even since 2018, but let's say 2020.

Hovik (00:20:46):

And in 2021...

Hovik (00:20:52):

The elections, in our opinion, were neither free nor fair.

Hovik (00:20:57):

All you have to do is recall Pashinyan campaigning with a hammer or a sledgehammer

Hovik (00:21:03):

threatening to crack the heads of opponents,

Hovik (00:21:05):

slam them against walls and whatnot.

Hovik (00:21:09):

And in the past couple of years,

Hovik (00:21:10):

Pashinyan's government has followed Aliyev's example in jailing political

Hovik (00:21:14):

opponents.

Hovik (00:21:16):

Although instead of sham trials,

Hovik (00:21:18):

more often than not, Pashinyan orders so-called pre-trial detention,

Hovik (00:21:24):

which is renewed indefinitely until the threat to him disappears or is

Hovik (00:21:29):

marginalized.

Hovik (00:21:31):

Currently, there are more than 40 political prisoners in Armenia.

Hovik (00:21:35):

Something unheard of,

Hovik (00:21:36):

I would say,

Hovik (00:21:37):

in a European country,

Hovik (00:21:39):

but the people that you talk to,

Hovik (00:21:41):

the organizations that you met,

Hovik (00:21:44):

are completely happy,

Hovik (00:21:45):

it appears,

Hovik (00:21:46):

with the situation.

Hovik (00:21:48):

The same with the Armenian Church.

Hovik (00:21:49):

Pashinyan is on a campaign to replace the Armenian Catholicos with someone who is

Hovik (00:21:55):

not opposed to his political views.

Hovik (00:21:57):

Many archbishops and priests are jailed,

Hovik (00:22:00):

and just,

Hovik (00:22:01):

you know,

Hovik (00:22:02):

Armenia has physically 10 dioceses in Armenia.

Hovik (00:22:06):

The heads of those three dioceses, bishops, are currently in jail.

Hovik (00:22:11):

People like Samvel Karapetyan,

Hovik (00:22:12):

who has spoken out in support of the church,

Hovik (00:22:16):

you know,

Hovik (00:22:17):

are also in jail and so on and so forth.

Hovik (00:22:20):

Of course,

Hovik (00:22:21):

you know, as I said,

Hovik (00:22:22):

from the West,

Hovik (00:22:23):

we hear crickets or outright dismissal of the problem and even encouragement for

Hovik (00:22:29):

the government.

Hovik (00:22:31):

So as your organization is very much involved with Armenia,

Hovik (00:22:37):

and we've seen you defending the Armenian church in the past,

Hovik (00:22:44):

Maybe we're asking the same question or in different contexts,

Hovik (00:22:46):

but is there anything left of democracy in Armenia?

Hovik (00:22:51):

And is any of this registering with the West in any capacity?

Hovik (00:22:56):

Maybe not publicly,

Hovik (00:22:57):

but were you able,

Hovik (00:22:58):

for instance,

Hovik (00:22:59):

to raise such issues at the conference,

Hovik (00:23:01):

even on a private level?

Hovik (00:23:02):

And what were the responses that you got?

Garen (00:23:06):

Yeah, so first of all, we have to really understand why the church is being targeted.

Garen (00:23:11):

And I say the church and not the clergyman, because ultimately that's what is happening.

Garen (00:23:19):

These attacks on,

Garen (00:23:21):

you know,

Garen (00:23:22):

the diocese,

Garen (00:23:23):

the establishment of the church,

Garen (00:23:25):

mentioning that,

Garen (00:23:28):

you know,

Garen (00:23:29):

Etchmiadzin is nothing but,

Garen (00:23:30):

what was it, a warehouse?

Garen (00:23:32):

Something like that, he said.

Garen (00:23:35):

Whatever those rhetorics might be,

Garen (00:23:38):

we really,

Garen (00:23:39):

really need to understand that ultimately the target of these is not just this

Garen (00:23:46):

bishop,

Garen (00:23:47):

that archbishop,

Garen (00:23:49):

whatever. That's not the point.

Garen (00:23:50):

The point is we tried saying this multiple times.

Garen (00:23:57):

The target, the true target is the nationalistic values that the church holds.

Garen (00:24:04):

The sense of pride in your nation that the church gives and has given throughout

Garen (00:24:09):

the years, that's what's being targeted.

Garen (00:24:11):

That is the adversary they're trying to crush at the moment.

Garen (00:24:17):

And now,

Garen (00:24:19):

by the way,

Garen (00:24:21):

if my memory serves me right,

Garen (00:24:22):

this did happen,

Garen (00:24:24):

uh, kind of 2018,

Garen (00:24:27):

2019 timeframe as well,

Garen (00:24:29):

where,

Garen (00:24:31):

you know, the same,

Garen (00:24:32):

the same people tried,

Garen (00:24:34):

giving it a go, but it didn't really work.

Garen (00:24:35):

And so it kind of got delayed for a couple of years and then it's kind of

Garen (00:24:40):

blossoming again right now with the same narratives,

Garen (00:24:43):

the same explanations,

Garen (00:24:44):

whatever.

Garen (00:24:47):

So the thing is,

Garen (00:24:48):

when you're targeting that nationalist ideology,

Garen (00:24:54):

that national pride that you have,

Garen (00:24:58):

you have to understand who wants that.

Garen (00:25:01):

Ultimately, every country wants to dominate over the other.

Garen (00:25:06):

would want you to lose that sense of national pride in your nation, right?

Garen (00:25:13):

That's kind of just the 101 of taking over a country, let's say.

Garen (00:25:19):

And so this is the...

Garen (00:25:23):

This is the work that is happening to build up to there.

Garen (00:25:27):

That's why this fight is very important.

Garen (00:25:28):

That's why resisting this.

Garen (00:25:32):

That's why putting a front to it,

Garen (00:25:34):

just as we are,

Garen (00:25:37):

you guys are,

Garen (00:25:39):

just as all of those who are now politically imprisoned in Armenia are doing.

Garen (00:25:48):

that is something that should be unacceptable.

Garen (00:25:51):

And it really does pain me to be able to speak this way, right?

Garen (00:25:56):

It really brings me physical pain,

Garen (00:26:00):

excruciating pain to talk about our nation in this manner,

Garen (00:26:04):

just because,

Garen (00:26:05):

you know,

Garen (00:26:08):

some people

Garen (00:26:09):

Some political party is now,

Garen (00:26:11):

you know,

Garen (00:26:12):

hell-bent on destroying everything that we have ever thought of Armenia to be.

Garen (00:26:17):

And so it's really, really disheartening.

Garen (00:26:21):

But at the end of the day,

Garen (00:26:22):

you have to be the adult sometimes,

Garen (00:26:26):

and you have to take some decisions that have to be taken.

Garen (00:26:29):

And you have to put a front to this.

Garen (00:26:32):

You have to say the church...

Garen (00:26:36):

should not be dealt with in this manner this is not something that you would do if

Garen (00:26:42):

uh you know you have a problem with the church if you have a problem with the

Garen (00:26:45):

church you deal with it internally you don't jail them you talk to them you kind of

Garen (00:26:51):

try to you know fix it in any way shape or form that you can but you don't say i'm

Garen (00:26:56):

going to appoint the next Catholicos and that's going to be it

Hovik (00:26:59):

And we'll talk about the church a little more.

Hovik (00:27:03):

But I was more interested in the general situation, like, you know, 40 political prisoners.

Hovik (00:27:09):

And you meet these guys at the conference.

Hovik (00:27:12):

What do they say when you tell them about this?

Hovik (00:27:15):

in private maybe or you know whatever you can sort of you know any i mean you you

Hovik (00:27:19):

mentioned some of the feedback are they just saying like you know i'm sorry we know

Hovik (00:27:23):

this is uh you know the situation but uh you know we can't do anything like i've

Hovik (00:27:28):

heard similar comments from others but well i've met some people in the working in

Hovik (00:27:32):

the ngos but you know i'm curious to hear what this what the environment what the

Hovik (00:27:37):

you know uh you know ambience there is nowadays in terms of talking about this

Garen (00:27:43):

In terms of NGOs and the NGOs that we've met with,

Garen (00:27:47):

when we talk about these issues with them,

Garen (00:27:50):

again,

Garen (00:27:51):

they're usually quite receptive,

Garen (00:27:53):

but most of their offering is just a human rights report,

Garen (00:27:58):

right? That's kind of all you can do at this point.

Garen (00:28:01):

When you come as an outsider to see, to view what is happening differently.

Garen (00:28:05):

There isn't much leeway for you to work in.

Garen (00:28:08):

But in terms of the delegation that,

Garen (00:28:11):

you know, was made aware of these situations,

Garen (00:28:14):

again,

Garen (00:28:15):

it's the same issue.

Garen (00:28:16):

When you and your delegation and the people that hold the highest authority of that

Garen (00:28:24):

land do not want to pursue this,

Garen (00:28:27):

then...

Garen (00:28:28):

There isn't really much to do.

Garen (00:28:30):

And you have to be really,

Garen (00:28:31):

really careful when you do that,

Garen (00:28:33):

because you don't want to make Armenia the enemy of the OSCE or any of these

Garen (00:28:41):

international bodies.

Garen (00:28:42):

That's not the point.

Garen (00:28:44):

And you have to really carefully maneuver these conversations.

Garen (00:28:49):

So you get to a place where you say, this is not Armenia, this is just temporary.

Garen (00:28:56):

But most of the work has got to be done internally.

Garen (00:28:59):

And most of my time I spent there was talking with the civil society in Armenia,

Garen (00:29:05):

giving whatever I could...

Garen (00:29:07):

To let them know that at the end of the day, it's up to them.

Garen (00:29:11):

It's up to the people of Armenia.

Garen (00:29:13):

And so in my opinion, the way to go is education, civic education, history education.

Garen (00:29:20):

Both of them are really failing in Armenia right now.

Garen (00:29:23):

We've seen the new textbooks of history that make me want to curl up and just

Garen (00:29:30):

disappear from this universe.

Garen (00:29:33):

But it's that sort of thing that we have to put our battles in.

Hovik (00:29:40):

I mean, I think that maybe it's a very big plan or maybe it's a small plan,

Hovik (00:29:48):

but there is an effort to erase or reprogram Armenian identity.

Hovik (00:29:55):

And the school curricula are part of that.

Hovik (00:29:58):

And,

Hovik (00:29:59):

you know,

Hovik (00:30:00):

earlier,

Hovik (00:30:01):

the only reason why I sort of interrupted you is earlier you used the word

Hovik (00:30:06):

nationalism.

Hovik (00:30:07):

And I don't want to, of course, feign that word.

Hovik (00:30:09):

I think I don't want to disown that word.

Hovik (00:30:11):

But I think it's also important to say that, you know, the type of nationalism that normally...

Hovik (00:30:17):

is perceived in the West is maybe like...

Hovik (00:30:21):

They think of nationalism as fascism,

Hovik (00:30:23):

basically,

Hovik (00:30:24):

which is not the case here.

Hovik (00:30:26):

And this is, of course, yes.

Hovik (00:30:28):

With small states, it's different.

Hovik (00:30:29):

And also, we're talking about identity, core things about Armenian identity.

Hovik (00:30:34):

Am I nationalistic if I want justice for my genocide,

Hovik (00:30:40):

surviving grandparents and their kin who were not so lucky?

Hovik (00:30:44):

I don't know.

Hovik (00:30:46):

So, yeah, I think it's important to highlight that.

Hovik (00:30:49):

And I think that the attacks against the church may also,

Hovik (00:30:53):

you know,

Hovik (00:30:54):

are also in that,

Hovik (00:30:55):

you know,

Hovik (00:30:56):

in that vein.

Asbed (00:30:57):

Sophie, can I add one more thing to what you were saying?

Asbed (00:31:00):

about grand plans, little plans and whatever.

Asbed (00:31:04):

What you just said is exactly what we're seeing inside Armenia.

Asbed (00:31:08):

So there's probably some kind of a plan.

Asbed (00:31:10):

But remember that a few years ago,

Asbed (00:31:12):

there were similar attacks on Georgian identity in Georgia north of us.

Asbed (00:31:17):

So the plan is not just for Armenia.

Asbed (00:31:20):

I think there is a reshaping of the entire region that they are trying to do.

Asbed (00:31:24):

And some of the concerns that we've had, we ascribe to Azerbaijan and Turkey.

Asbed (00:31:31):

It may or may not be the same with Georgia,

Asbed (00:31:33):

but I've read a lot of the pressure on them has come from the West as well.

Asbed (00:31:38):

What I see is that there's a lot about these cornerstones of national identity.

Asbed (00:31:44):

I'm not even talking about nationalism or anything like that.

Asbed (00:31:47):

National identity that are a threat to the globalist view that comes from the West.

Garen (00:31:55):

It is the case, unfortunately, and it's something to strive to correct.

Garen (00:32:02):

Now, unfortunately, we have to really define the words that we're talking about.

Garen (00:32:08):

And thank you, Hovik, for putting that on the radar.

Garen (00:32:13):

But...

Garen (00:32:15):

At the end of the day,

Garen (00:32:16):

when you are surrounded by everyone that wants to take a piece of your land,

Garen (00:32:21):

either you have the interests of your country in your mind as a top priority or you

Garen (00:32:28):

don't. That's what we're discussing.

Garen (00:32:30):

And that's what needs to be taught to the children of Armenia and the diaspora,

Garen (00:32:35):

to have that in mind and to say,

Garen (00:32:37):

you know,

Garen (00:32:38):

our lands are not something that should be given away,

Garen (00:32:41):

nor,

Garen (00:32:44):

you know,

Garen (00:32:45):

taken by no show of force.

Garen (00:32:48):

That's basically what we mean when we talk about these things.

Garen (00:32:54):

And in terms of national identity,

Garen (00:32:57):

organizations like ours work with organizations from around the world to keep the

Garen (00:33:02):

Armenian identity alive.

Garen (00:33:05):

And it's really an interesting development that now we see that it's become equally

Garen (00:33:12):

difficult in Armenia to keep that national identity as it is in the diaspora.

Garen (00:33:17):

we've always had the sense that,

Garen (00:33:19):

you know, the diaspora,

Garen (00:33:20):

since you're,

Garen (00:33:21):

you know, surrounded by strangers,

Garen (00:33:23):

by foreigners,

Garen (00:33:24):

by people who are not necessarily Armenian and you're forced to,

Garen (00:33:28):

you know,

Garen (00:33:29):

be friends with them, break bread with them,

Garen (00:33:31):

whatever it might be that you might kind of,

Garen (00:33:34):

dilute your culture and become part of where you're living.

Garen (00:33:40):

But as it turns out, it's fairly simple to do that in your own country as well, unfortunately.

Garen (00:33:48):

If you're not keeping an eye on it, then it just kind of goes out of control.

Asbed (00:33:52):

Garen, I want to pick up a thread that you were talking about earlier about NGOs.

Asbed (00:33:58):

One NGO that has gone beyond press releases and has taken action for over 30 years

Asbed (00:34:06):

since Armenia's independence,

Asbed (00:34:08):

possibly even before,

Asbed (00:34:09):

is Christian Solidarity International.

Asbed (00:34:12):

And I believe that their president,

Asbed (00:34:14):

John Ivner, was at the ANCA banquet earlier,

Asbed (00:34:17):

like a month ago,

Asbed (00:34:18):

a month and a half ago in Los Angeles.

Asbed (00:34:21):

And you interviewed him.

Asbed (00:34:22):

Can you talk about what you heard from him?

Asbed (00:34:26):

He is a wonderful man.

Garen (00:34:27):

Yes.

Garen (00:34:28):

It was a very interesting interview that I did.

Garen (00:34:30):

It was the very first interview that I hosted.

Garen (00:34:33):

So you guys let me know how that was and if I have a career.

Hovik (00:34:37):

We'll have the link in the show notes.

Hovik (00:34:38):

Let's...

Garen (00:34:39):

We'll have our listeners maybe judge.

Garen (00:34:43):

So, yeah, it was a very interesting interview.

Garen (00:34:46):

And I'm glad that,

Garen (00:34:48):

you know,

Garen (00:34:49):

my first time interviewing was with Dr.

Garen (00:34:51):

John Eibner because he was such a knowledgeable and

Garen (00:34:57):

Deep thinker that it genuinely was interesting being in the room.

Garen (00:35:02):

I didn't even feel like an interview.

Garen (00:35:04):

It was just like a conversation I had with,

Garen (00:35:07):

you know,

Garen (00:35:08):

someone who's seen a lot of stuff in that region.

Asbed (00:35:11):

Talk about a value driven man.

Asbed (00:35:14):

Yeah.

Garen (00:35:14):

Exactly, exactly.

Garen (00:35:16):

And as has discussed multiple times throughout the our talk right now,

Garen (00:35:23):

the value driven men are in limited quantities at this point.

Garen (00:35:29):

So it was a very it was an honor for me to have a chat with him in that capacity.

Garen (00:35:35):

And so I got to.

Garen (00:35:38):

actually understand the whole chronological sense of the work that the CSI has done

Garen (00:35:47):

for Armenia,

Garen (00:35:49):

for Artsakh,

Garen (00:35:50):

for the Christian Armenians there,

Garen (00:35:53):

the heritage,

Garen (00:35:54):

all of it.

Garen (00:35:55):

And it started from the 1990s all the way to today, and they still do everything in their power.

Garen (00:36:03):

And all I can say is more force to them.

Garen (00:36:07):

I know that they were one of the leads in the Lady Cox Rehabilitation Center in Stepanakert.

Garen (00:36:15):

They were giving emergency aid, humanitarian aid, medical, psychological aid.

Garen (00:36:24):

support whatever they could give and all the while doing international advocacy

Garen (00:36:28):

just like we're doing and accompanying organizations such as ours to get this on

Garen (00:36:34):

the public international stage let's say because it is something that is constantly

Garen (00:36:42):

being thrown under the rug and so um

Garen (00:36:46):

It was very interesting to see how much,

Garen (00:36:49):

just exactly how much the CSI has contributed to our society and how much in a very

Garen (00:36:56):

weird way.

Garen (00:36:57):

And you see that in the interview, he says, the Armenian situation, the Artsakh situation,

Garen (00:37:03):

helped the CSI evolve its mission to what it is now in,

Garen (00:37:08):

say, the African countries where there are Christian persecutions and genocide and all

Garen (00:37:13):

of that, and how much of the Armenian story touched them as an organization.

Garen (00:37:19):

And now they do what they do and they are what they are.

Garen (00:37:23):

And it was it was very interesting to understand all of this.

Hovik (00:37:28):

You know, when we're talking about this,

Hovik (00:37:33):

attack against the church.

Hovik (00:37:35):

Sometimes we hear... And I don't know if this is a...

Hovik (00:37:40):

the appropriate criticism or not,

Hovik (00:37:43):

but sometimes we hear criticism that,

Hovik (00:37:45):

okay, where is the ANCA?

Hovik (00:37:46):

Why isn't the ANCA doing more?

Hovik (00:37:48):

So since we have you here,

Hovik (00:37:51):

it seems like the ANCA has been the replacement of many of the Armenian

Hovik (00:37:55):

institutions that are supposed to safeguard our identity.

Hovik (00:37:59):

But tell us what the policy of the ANCA is towards the defense of the Armenian

Hovik (00:38:04):

Church and,

Hovik (00:38:06):

you know,

Hovik (00:38:08):

I've seen you issue press releases or tweets about it,

Hovik (00:38:12):

but is there anything you can tell us about the activity that you're doing right

Hovik (00:38:16):

now?

Garen (00:38:17):

Yeah.

Garen (00:38:18):

First of all, it's really important to understand.

Garen (00:38:20):

Although you say that the ANCA is replacing some Armenian governmental branches,

Garen (00:38:31):

let's say, or whatever,

Garen (00:38:32):

it's...

Garen (00:38:34):

It's not as simple as that,

Garen (00:38:37):

just for a public record,

Garen (00:38:39):

because the ANCA is an Armenian-American organization,

Garen (00:38:46):

and it is based in the United States and lobbies to convey the interests of

Garen (00:38:57):

Armenian-Americans in the United States to the United States government.

Garen (00:39:03):

We do not have any jurisdiction over what happens in Armenia.

Garen (00:39:08):

We are not related to any of the governmental institutions.

Garen (00:39:14):

We do work with them whenever necessary.

Garen (00:39:18):

We would like to include them in everything that we do.

Garen (00:39:21):

But our ultimate goal is conveying the will of the Armenian Americans in the United

Garen (00:39:27):

States of America to the government of the United States of America.

Garen (00:39:31):

So just for the audience to get a very clear understanding of what the limitations

Garen (00:39:40):

of the ANCA is as a whole.

Garen (00:39:44):

And so when we talk about these stuff, it's...

Garen (00:39:47):

It's really difficult.

Garen (00:39:49):

I mean, it's difficult on a personal level as well to talk about a country you love very

Garen (00:39:53):

much,

Garen (00:39:54):

turn into what it is,

Garen (00:39:56):

fearing what it might be,

Garen (00:39:57):

even worse.

Garen (00:39:59):

But when it comes to anything in official capacity of ANCA,

Garen (00:40:04):

then you have to be really,

Garen (00:40:06):

really careful to stick to what you can do in your country.

Garen (00:40:14):

let's say, arena that you're playing in, right?

Garen (00:40:17):

And when we speak with elected officials in this regard,

Garen (00:40:22):

when we speak to the public in this regard,

Garen (00:40:27):

we always hold in our minds that this is what the Armenian-American public believes

Garen (00:40:34):

in, and this is what they want us to say.

Garen (00:40:36):

We're the spokesperson.

Garen (00:40:37):

Yeah.

Garen (00:40:39):

And so in terms of internal Armenian affairs,

Garen (00:40:45):

all we can say is that we can see that there's a democratic backsliding,

Garen (00:40:49):

and this is not good for any country,

Garen (00:40:51):

much less Armenia,

Garen (00:40:52):

in a very existential survival state it's in right now.

Garen (00:41:00):

But we do not...

Garen (00:41:01):

In any shape, talk about the internal governance and politics of Armenia.

Garen (00:41:09):

That is for the Armenian government to do through its embassies and consulates throughout.

Garen (00:41:15):

If that makes sense.

Asbed (00:41:18):

Yep, that makes sense.

Asbed (00:41:20):

Some of the concerns I have don't really have to do with what the ANCA is doing.

Asbed (00:41:25):

Of course, we do not have any kind of jurisdiction about what goes on in Armenia,

Asbed (00:41:29):

but the Armenian church is a global church.

Asbed (00:41:32):

So the difficulties it is undergoing in the Republic will have repercussions all

Asbed (00:41:38):

the way in the diaspora here in our community,

Asbed (00:41:40):

in my case in Glendale,

Asbed (00:41:41):

for example.

Asbed (00:41:42):

So of course those concerns do emanate all the way from the Republic to here.

Asbed (00:41:48):

All right, let's leave it there for today, Garen.

Asbed (00:41:50):

Thank you so much for joining us.

Asbed (00:41:51):

We really appreciate your time.

Garen (00:41:54):

Thank you so much for having me.

Garen (00:41:55):

This was a pleasant conversation.

Asbed (00:41:57):

For us as well.

Asbed (00:41:58):

Thank you, Garen.

Asbed (00:42:00):

That's our show today.

Asbed (00:42:01):

This episode was recorded on November 23, 2025.

Asbed (00:42:03):

We've been talking with Garen Jinbachian,

Asbed (00:42:07):

who is the Community Relations Officer for the West Coast Office of the Armenian

Asbed (00:42:10):

National Committee of America.

Asbed (00:42:13):

His efforts are focused on advancing the Armenian cause,

Asbed (00:42:16):

Hay Tahd,

Asbed (00:42:17):

by fostering strong community ties and gathering feedback to shape advocacy

Asbed (00:42:21):

strategies.

Asbed (00:42:22):

For more information,

Asbed (00:42:24):

go to our show notes,

Asbed (00:42:25):

podcasts.groong.org/episode-number,

Asbed (00:42:29):

and you can click on the bios for everyone in the show.

Hovik (00:42:33):

Don't forget to make sure you're subscribed,

Hovik (00:42:35):

like,

Hovik (00:42:36):

comment, and share our podcast with your friends.

Hovik (00:42:39):

And if you feel so inclined and are capable,

Hovik (00:42:43):

then please consider giving us either a one-time or monthly donation.

Hovik (00:42:48):

It helps us keep going.

Hovik (00:42:49):

It helps us reach more people.

Hovik (00:42:52):

So we appreciate it.

Hovik (00:42:53):

Thank you.

Asbed (00:42:54):

We will talk to you soon, folks.

Asbed (00:42:57):

Actually, we're recording tomorrow.

Asbed (00:43:00):

But we'll be back on the air very soon.

Hovik (00:43:03):

Yeah.

Hovik (00:43:04):

Thanks.

Hovik (00:43:05):

And from Yerevan, I'm Hovik Manucharyan.

Hovik (00:43:09):

Bye-bye.

Hovik (00:43:10):

Bye-bye.

Head Shot

Asbed Bedrossian

Co-host
Head Shot

Hovik Manucharyan

Co-host
Head Shot

Garen Jinbachian

Guest

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