Armenian News Network - Groong: Week In Review Podcast

Joel Veldkamp - Armenia’s Prayer Breakfast and the Crackdown on the Church | Ep 490, Nov 27, 2025

• Armenian News Network / Groong • Episode 490

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Conversations on Groong - November 27, 2025

Topics:

  •  Clergy Arrests in Armenia
  •  Church Under Pressure
  •  Prayer Breakfast Controversy
  •  Western Silence on Repression
  •  CSI’s Findings in Yerevan

Guest: Joel Veldkamp

Hosts:

Episode 490 | Recorded: November 25, 2025

SHOW NOTES: https://podcasts.groong.org/490

VIDEO: https://youtu.be/BGnt2feIXMs

#ArmenianChurch #ReligiousFreedom #ClergyArrests #ChristianSolidarityInternational #HumanRightsInArmenia


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Asbed (00:00:06):

Hello everyone, and welcome to this Conversations on Groong episode.

Asbed (00:00:10):

Armenia held its first national prayer breakfast this month,

Asbed (00:00:14):

which on the surface looked like a public embrace of Christianity.

Asbed (00:00:18):

But behind the polished image sits a darker story, one that our guest has been tracking.

Asbed (00:00:23):

Clergy are being arrested,

Asbed (00:00:25):

church life is under growing pressure,

Asbed (00:00:27):

and the government's campaign against the Armenian Apostolic Church continues with

Asbed (00:00:30):

almost no pushback from Western partners.

Asbed (00:00:33):

Today, we're going to dig into what is happening behind the government PR and why it matters.

Asbed (00:00:39):

And our guest today for this discussion will be Dr.

Asbed (00:00:42):

Joel Weltkamp,

Asbed (00:00:44):

who is Director for Public Advocacy at Christian Solidarity International,

Asbed (00:00:48):

an organization that has been at the side of the Christian Armenians of Artsakh and

Asbed (00:00:53):

Armenia almost since independence.

Hovik (00:00:55):

And before we go to Joel,

Hovik (00:00:57):

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Hovik (00:01:01):

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Hovik (00:01:06):

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Asbed (00:01:45):

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Hovik (00:02:11):

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Hovik (00:02:16):

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Asbed (00:02:18):

Happy Thanksgiving, everyone.

Hovik (00:02:21):

All right. On with the show.

Asbed (00:02:22):

Joel Veldkamp,

Asbed (00:02:23):

welcome to the Groong Podcast.

Veldkamp (00:02:25):

Thank you so much.

Veldkamp (00:02:26):

It's great to be here.

Hovik (00:02:28):

Nice to have you, Joel.

Hovik (00:02:29):

And thanks for accepting our invitation.

Veldkamp (00:02:31):

Absolutely. Thank you for the invitation.

Hovik (00:02:33):

Joel, so Christian Solidarity International,

Hovik (00:02:36):

CSI,

Hovik (00:02:37):

has worked with Armenians since the 1990s,

Hovik (00:02:40):

often during some of the hardest years for Armenians and Christians.

Hovik (00:02:44):

Before we get into the current situation and the current topic, which is

Hovik (00:02:47):

persecution of the Armenian church.

Hovik (00:02:49):

Can you give us a brief overview of the CSI and the kind of work it has carried out

Hovik (00:02:52):

in Armenia over the decades?

Hovik (00:02:54):

And also,

Hovik (00:02:55):

you can also maybe cover your own background and personal involvement with the

Hovik (00:02:59):

organization as well.

Veldkamp (00:03:00):

Sure, yeah.

Veldkamp (00:03:01):

So Christian Solidarity International was founded in 1977 in Zurich, Switzerland.

Veldkamp (00:03:07):

It was founded by a group of reformed pastors who were really concerned that the

Veldkamp (00:03:11):

existing Christian institutions were neglecting the persecution of Christians

Veldkamp (00:03:15):

behind the Iron Curtain.

Veldkamp (00:03:17):

So it was formed as an activist group.

Veldkamp (00:03:19):

And during the 70s and 80s, it was primarily a letter writing organization.

Veldkamp (00:03:23):

They would campaign for specific pastors who were in jail in Eastern Europe or

Veldkamp (00:03:27):

Nicaragua,

Veldkamp (00:03:30):

do protests, do letter writing campaigns,

Veldkamp (00:03:32):

these sorts of things.

Veldkamp (00:03:34):

And then, of course, the Cold War ended and the Iron Curtain came down.

Veldkamp (00:03:37):

And that was really a transformative moment for our organization because that was

Veldkamp (00:03:42):

when my boss,

Veldkamp (00:03:43):

Dr.

Veldkamp (00:03:44):

John Eibner, who's now our president,

Veldkamp (00:03:46):

traveled to Moscow and met some people there who were talking about a place called

Veldkamp (00:03:50):

Nagorno-Karabakh.

Veldkamp (00:03:52):

We're talking about the ethnic cleansing of Armenians by Soviet troops and Azerbaijani troops.

Veldkamp (00:03:59):

And we kind of immediately realized that this was going to be a new frontier in our

Veldkamp (00:04:04):

work, no longer just campaigning for prisoners of conscience,

Veldkamp (00:04:07):

but as the Russian empire,

Veldkamp (00:04:08):

the Soviet empire crumbled,

Veldkamp (00:04:10):

trying to help indigenous Christian peoples hold onto their land in the face of

Veldkamp (00:04:15):

existential threats,

Veldkamp (00:04:16):

threats of ethnic cleansing,

Veldkamp (00:04:17):

even threats of genocide.

Veldkamp (00:04:20):

So during the first Karabakh war,

Veldkamp (00:04:22):

we traveled to Nagorno-Karabakh quite often,

Veldkamp (00:04:26):

breaking the blockade of Stepanakert,

Veldkamp (00:04:28):

bringing medicine,

Veldkamp (00:04:29):

bringing supplies,

Veldkamp (00:04:31):

and trying to tell the world as best we could what we saw when we were there.

Veldkamp (00:04:35):

At that time, Baroness Caroline Cox was a leader in CSI UK.

Veldkamp (00:04:40):

Today, she has her own organization, but she's still a very good friend of ours.

Veldkamp (00:04:44):

But so she and my boss, John Eibner, would go to Nagorno-Karabakh together quite often.

Veldkamp (00:04:50):

So they always tell the stories of arriving in Stepanakert the first time and being

Veldkamp (00:04:54):

absolutely shocked that the hospital was empty.

Veldkamp (00:04:57):

that they were having to operate on people and amputate limbs with only vodka,

Veldkamp (00:05:02):

basically, as an anesthetic.

Veldkamp (00:05:04):

So the first thing they did when they had the opportunity was to bring in a

Veldkamp (00:05:07):

shipment of anesthetics to the hospital.

Hovik (00:05:10):

In fact,

Hovik (00:05:12):

I watched an interview with Dr.

Hovik (00:05:13):

Eibner on Horizon TV,

Hovik (00:05:18):

and he talked about how the Karabakh conflict transformed CSI as well from an

Hovik (00:05:26):

organization,

Hovik (00:05:27):

like you say,

Hovik (00:05:28):

from a letter-writing organization to one that has actually a more active mission

Hovik (00:05:32):

and provides material help and advocation for victimized communities.

Hovik (00:05:37):

Before we move on,

Hovik (00:05:38):

can you also tell us about,

Hovik (00:05:41):

many Armenians know CSI,

Hovik (00:05:43):

but what does CSI do globally as well?

Hovik (00:05:45):

Where do you also have projects and can you tell us a little bit about your work

Hovik (00:05:50):

around the world?

Hovik (00:05:51):

Sure.

Hovik (00:05:52):

So like you said,

Veldkamp (00:05:52):

Hovik,

Veldkamp (00:05:53):

the war in Nagorno-Karabakh really transformed us from strictly an advocacy

Veldkamp (00:05:58):

organization to an organization that combines advocacy and aid for the persecuted.

Veldkamp (00:06:03):

And we try to always keep those two things together.

Veldkamp (00:06:06):

So today we're operating in 15 countries around the world,

Veldkamp (00:06:10):

working with local partners to provide aid to victims of persecution.

Veldkamp (00:06:14):

And that can look...

Veldkamp (00:06:16):

Like many very different things.

Veldkamp (00:06:18):

So in Pakistan, a lot of the work that we do is legal work.

Veldkamp (00:06:21):

We support local lawyers who are trying to get Christians out of prison,

Veldkamp (00:06:25):

Christians who have been falsely accused of blasphemy against Islam,

Veldkamp (00:06:28):

or women who have been forcibly married and converted to Islam.

Veldkamp (00:06:33):

In Nigeria,

Veldkamp (00:06:34):

we're very active trying to help people who've been displaced by attacks on

Veldkamp (00:06:38):

Christian villages from Boko Haram and Fulani militia groups.

Veldkamp (00:06:43):

In Sudan, that's our biggest and probably most famous project.

Veldkamp (00:06:48):

Since the mid-90s, we've been getting people out of slavery in Sudan.

Veldkamp (00:06:53):

Because as part of Sudan's big civil war between North and South,

Veldkamp (00:06:57):

tens of thousands of Southern Christians,

Veldkamp (00:07:00):

Black Christians,

Veldkamp (00:07:01):

were enslaved by jihadist militia groups from the North.

Veldkamp (00:07:04):

And when we went there to find out about the situation,

Veldkamp (00:07:06):

we discovered that there was already a local network of Sudanese people working to

Veldkamp (00:07:11):

bring these people out of slavery,

Veldkamp (00:07:13):

whether exchanging goods for their freedom or helping them to escape,

Veldkamp (00:07:16):

and then bringing them through this underground network back to their homeland.

Veldkamp (00:07:20):

So we've supported that network now for 30 years,

Veldkamp (00:07:23):

and we hope we're getting close to the end of this form of slavery in Sudan.

Veldkamp (00:07:29):

But time will tell.

Asbed (00:07:31):

Joel, you were in Yerevan recently, I think maybe even last week, together with Dr. Eibner.

Asbed (00:07:37):

your president.

Asbed (00:07:38):

You attended a prayer breakfast held by the head of the Armenian regime, Nikol Pashinyan.

Asbed (00:07:43):

You stated that one of the other reasons for your visit was to do a fact-finding mission.

Asbed (00:07:49):

Can you tell us a little bit more about your trip, what you learned, and how the trip went?

Veldkamp (00:07:53):

Sure.

Veldkamp (00:07:56):

I've been telling people this was my most depressing trip to Armenia.

Veldkamp (00:08:00):

I've been there five times in the past four years,

Veldkamp (00:08:02):

including during the blockade of Nagorno-Karabakh.

Veldkamp (00:08:05):

And this time,

Veldkamp (00:08:06):

the mood in Yerevan amongst our friends,

Veldkamp (00:08:10):

amongst human rights activists is just very dark.

Veldkamp (00:08:14):

The day that I landed was the day that the two podcasters from AntiFake were

Veldkamp (00:08:19):

arrested at their home and dragged off by mass agents from the NSS.

Veldkamp (00:08:24):

We found...

Veldkamp (00:08:25):

the situation to be quite grim in general.

Veldkamp (00:08:29):

But we tried to make the best of it.

Veldkamp (00:08:30):

We weren't going to go just to pray or just to participate in a celebratory event.

Veldkamp (00:08:35):

We also wanted to make sure we were asking questions about the human rights

Veldkamp (00:08:38):

situation in Armenia.

Veldkamp (00:08:39):

We're a human rights group.

Veldkamp (00:08:42):

The day that we land in a country, the government starts arresting podcasters.

Veldkamp (00:08:45):

We can't simply not ask questions about that.

Veldkamp (00:08:49):

So we submitted a formal request to visit the imprisoned clergy and the imprisoned

Veldkamp (00:08:54):

lay people from the Armenian church in prison.

Veldkamp (00:08:57):

We were not granted access to visit them, but we will almost certainly try again.

Veldkamp (00:09:02):

Yeah.

Asbed (00:09:03):

What do you think were the reasons why you were not granted permission to visit

Asbed (00:09:08):

these prisoners,

Asbed (00:09:09):

the clergy?

Veldkamp (00:09:11):

I can only speculate, but it's fairly clear that it was not a good faith refusal.

Veldkamp (00:09:18):

Because the refusal letter was dated November 13,

Veldkamp (00:09:22):

but it arrived as an email attachment on November 14 at 4 p.m.,

Veldkamp (00:09:26):

which was a Friday,

Veldkamp (00:09:28):

meaning there was no time to...

Veldkamp (00:09:30):

follow up or do anything about it.

Veldkamp (00:09:32):

And the letter said, we're very happy to collaborate with you to arrange a visit.

Veldkamp (00:09:37):

Unfortunately, visiting these prisoners is outside of our jurisdiction.

Asbed (00:09:43):

Yeah.

Veldkamp (00:09:44):

Try to get your head around that one.

Asbed (00:09:45):

I understand.

Veldkamp (00:09:46):

No jurisdiction for.

Asbed (00:09:48):

Well, I mean, it makes absolutely no sense to deny that.

Asbed (00:09:52):

But I think the prayer breakfast was essentially designed as a,

Asbed (00:09:56):

you know,

Asbed (00:09:57):

I'm going to take responsibility for my words,

Asbed (00:09:59):

a PR stunt,

Asbed (00:10:00):

to be honest.

Asbed (00:10:02):

But it didn't even go as designed,

Asbed (00:10:04):

even then,

Asbed (00:10:05):

because there was not total acquiescence with the organizers at the event.

Asbed (00:10:09):

Dr.

Asbed (00:10:10):

Eibner spoke in defense of the church,

Asbed (00:10:12):

and you also praised,

Asbed (00:10:13):

I believe, Dr.

Asbed (00:10:14):

Asif Mahmoud,

Asbed (00:10:15):

co-chair of the U.S.

Asbed (00:10:16):

Commission on International Religious Freedom, for being notable exceptions to this silence.

Asbed (00:10:23):

Talk a little bit about the significance of the decision to speak out at this

Asbed (00:10:28):

national prayer breakfast regarding the release of the clergy.

Veldkamp (00:10:32):

Yeah, I think it's a complicated question,

Veldkamp (00:10:35):

this event, because what I always tell people is if you go back five years,

Veldkamp (00:10:39):

if you go back to the war,

Veldkamp (00:10:41):

the 44-day war against Nagorno-Karabakh,

Veldkamp (00:10:44):

Christians in the United States really had no clue.

Veldkamp (00:10:48):

They had no clue what was going on.

Veldkamp (00:10:49):

They didn't understand it.

Veldkamp (00:10:50):

They didn't know what these countries were.

Veldkamp (00:10:52):

They didn't know, what is this, a national thing?

Veldkamp (00:10:54):

Is this a political thing?

Veldkamp (00:10:56):

Is this like two more countries with unpronounceable names that are going at it for

Veldkamp (00:11:00):

reasons that we don't understand?

Veldkamp (00:11:02):

Even though there's a fairly robust ecosystem now of groups in the U.S.

Veldkamp (00:11:06):

that are supposed to support persecuted Christians.

Veldkamp (00:11:11):

So since then,

Veldkamp (00:11:12):

we've been working and the groups that are responsible for the prayer breakfast

Veldkamp (00:11:15):

have been working really hard to try to raise awareness about the threats facing

Veldkamp (00:11:20):

Armenia among Christian groups that should care in the U.S.,

Veldkamp (00:11:26):

And on the one hand, the prayer breakfast was kind of a manifestation of these efforts.

Veldkamp (00:11:30):

And so we can take that as a positive sign that these rich,

Veldkamp (00:11:34):

influential Christian conservatives from the United States are now thinking about

Veldkamp (00:11:38):

Armenia,

Veldkamp (00:11:39):

looking at Armenia,

Veldkamp (00:11:40):

caring about Armenia.

Veldkamp (00:11:42):

And we're glad that that's the case.

Veldkamp (00:11:45):

But as you said,

Veldkamp (00:11:46):

Aspet, the prime minister clearly intended to use this to bolster his own credibility.

Veldkamp (00:11:51):

And I would say,

Veldkamp (00:11:53):

I think he wants to be the one to benefit from all this sympathy,

Veldkamp (00:11:57):

this new sympathy in the United States among Christians for Armenia.

Veldkamp (00:12:02):

So it is a paradox that this prime minister who's putting bishops in jail is also

Veldkamp (00:12:06):

the prime minister hosting the prayer breakfast.

Veldkamp (00:12:08):

But it's really two sides of the same coin, right?

Veldkamp (00:12:10):

He's putting the bishops in jail so that he has no competition for this sympathy

Veldkamp (00:12:15):

and the support from Christians in the United States.

Asbed (00:12:18):

Yeah, absolutely.

Hovik (00:12:20):

So you're currently in Washington DC, I believe, or thereabouts.

Hovik (00:12:26):

And I believe you may have,

Hovik (00:12:28):

I mean, I don't know if you specifically went to give a briefing there,

Hovik (00:12:32):

but you did speak at a briefing about this situation in Armenia.

Hovik (00:12:38):

And I want to quote your words.

Hovik (00:12:41):

You said, Armenia is witnessing a systematic state-led campaign to undermine,

Hovik (00:12:46):

divide,

Hovik (00:12:47):

and persecute Armenia's national church.

Hovik (00:12:50):

Can you tell us more on why you believe this is a systematic and state-led campaign?

Veldkamp (00:12:56):

Yes, I think we're convinced by the fact that it started off small and it's growing.

Veldkamp (00:13:03):

And we have to take it all in the context of the prime minister's own words, right?

Veldkamp (00:13:09):

So first they arrest this one businessman,

Veldkamp (00:13:11):

Samvel Karapetyan,

Veldkamp (00:13:12):

for defending the church on television.

Veldkamp (00:13:15):

It's a gross human rights violation, a self-evident human rights violation, but it's one guy.

Veldkamp (00:13:21):

Then they arrest the archbishop who was at the forefront of protests seeking to

Veldkamp (00:13:27):

replace the prime minister.

Veldkamp (00:13:29):

Okay, also a human rights violation, but he was this huge political figure.

Veldkamp (00:13:32):

Then they arrest the archbishop who said some impolite things on television about

Veldkamp (00:13:36):

the government,

Veldkamp (00:13:37):

some unwise things,

Veldkamp (00:13:38):

but again,

Veldkamp (00:13:39):

totally for free speech.

Veldkamp (00:13:42):

Then they started arresting bishops and priests for very,

Veldkamp (00:13:45):

very minor equivalent of campaign finance violations in the US.

Veldkamp (00:13:51):

Laws that are not being fairly applied or evenly applied in Armenian to say the least.

Veldkamp (00:13:56):

They're arresting lay people.

Veldkamp (00:13:58):

They're arresting family members of the Catholicos, his brother and his nephew.

Veldkamp (00:14:01):

They're arresting lawyers who are trying to defend the clergy in court.

Veldkamp (00:14:05):

We see the dragnet just expanding.

Veldkamp (00:14:08):

And it's very clear that the intent is to intimidate other people who might want to

Veldkamp (00:14:13):

speak out in favor of the church.

Veldkamp (00:14:15):

So we see an expanding campaign of unfair arrests and human rights violations.

Veldkamp (00:14:20):

At the same time,

Veldkamp (00:14:22):

The prime minister is openly calling for the Catholicos to be replaced as head of

Veldkamp (00:14:27):

the Armenian church,

Veldkamp (00:14:28):

which is,

Veldkamp (00:14:29):

again, a flagrant human rights violation.

Veldkamp (00:14:31):

It goes against all international human rights law.

Veldkamp (00:14:34):

It goes against Armenia's constitution.

Asbed (00:14:36):

All religious freedom.

Veldkamp (00:14:37):

All religious freedom principles.

Veldkamp (00:14:40):

It's completely outrageous.

Veldkamp (00:14:41):

And he's not is not just like one comment.

Veldkamp (00:14:43):

He says these things regularly.

Veldkamp (00:14:45):

Just,

Veldkamp (00:14:46):

I think, the Sunday,

Veldkamp (00:14:47):

our last day in Armenia,

Veldkamp (00:14:48):

there were elections in Etchmiadzin outside of Yerevan.

Veldkamp (00:14:53):

And Etchmiadzin,

Veldkamp (00:14:54):

your audience knows,

Veldkamp (00:14:55):

of course, but the seat of the Armenian National Church and the Prime Minister's party wins

Veldkamp (00:14:59):

the elections.

Veldkamp (00:15:00):

And immediately afterwards,

Veldkamp (00:15:01):

the Prime Minister says,

Veldkamp (00:15:02):

this is another step in our campaign to liberate Etchmiadzin from the tyrant,

Veldkamp (00:15:07):

from the Catholicos.

Asbed (00:15:08):

Yeah, we have just actually talked about this issue on our previous podcast.

Hovik (00:15:12):

And what's funny is that the civil contract,

Hovik (00:15:14):

his party member that is campaigning there,

Hovik (00:15:17):

had deliberately tried to push Pashinyan aside and asked him not to campaign.

Hovik (00:15:22):

And he has distanced himself from the criticism of the clergy.

Hovik (00:15:27):

So the issue of attacks on the church was not even a campaign issue, you know, thank God.

Hovik (00:15:34):

But still, you know, Pashinyan is...

Hovik (00:15:38):

Using this as an as another PR,

Hovik (00:15:40):

you know move Okay,

Hovik (00:15:42):

so you talked about the archbishops and just for Just to repeat at the moment three

Hovik (00:15:47):

bishops two of them archbishops also Respectively the heads of three of the ten

Hovik (00:15:52):

diocese in Armenia are in jail So some are in pre-trial detention,

Hovik (00:15:57):

but Archbishop Mikhail Ajapahyan who just basically said you know the army should

Hovik (00:16:02):

have

Hovik (00:16:03):

I believe should have gotten involved at some point in the past,

Hovik (00:16:07):

something that Trump says on a daily basis.

Hovik (00:16:11):

But for that,

Hovik (00:16:14):

his case was expedited through the courts and immediately now he got a sentence for

Hovik (00:16:21):

two years in prison.

Hovik (00:16:23):

Along with the bishops, lower-ranking clerics are also in jail,

Hovik (00:16:25):

and others are under constant surveillance and other forms of pressure.

Hovik (00:16:30):

We hear about these all the time, and you are, of course, tracking them.

Hovik (00:16:34):

But, you know, I want to focus on the case of Archbishop Bagrat Galstanyan.

Hovik (00:16:42):

You mentioned that the accusations against him of planning a coup using terrorism

Hovik (00:16:48):

were based on falsified evidence and that the prosecutor's office had released that

Hovik (00:16:53):

evidence selectively.

Hovik (00:16:55):

Can you explain how the release of the full recordings exposed the fabrication of

Hovik (00:16:59):

this evidence and why this specific case is so central to your warning about the

Hovik (00:17:06):

breakdown of the rule of law?

Veldkamp (00:17:09):

Sure.

Veldkamp (00:17:10):

So maybe I'll just start by saying that when I was in Yerevan with Dr.

Veldkamp (00:17:13):

Ivner,

Veldkamp (00:17:14):

we got to meet with several different Armenian human rights groups.

Veldkamp (00:17:17):

And we were really impressed with their professionalism and their impartiality and

Veldkamp (00:17:21):

their hard work,

Veldkamp (00:17:22):

frankly,

Veldkamp (00:17:23):

because most of them are volunteers in some way or another.

Veldkamp (00:17:27):

So what I've learned about this case,

Veldkamp (00:17:28):

I've learned from them and from reports in the Armenian media.

Veldkamp (00:17:32):

And if I get one or two details wrong, it's my fault.

Veldkamp (00:17:36):

But the details are there in English language media from Armenia.

Veldkamp (00:17:40):

And people should really go to groups like Protection of Rights Without Borders,

Veldkamp (00:17:44):

like the Armenian Center for Political Rights,

Veldkamp (00:17:48):

the International Comparative Law Center,

Veldkamp (00:17:50):

the Regional Center for Security and Democracy.

Veldkamp (00:17:52):

These groups are doing great work to document this human rights crisis.

Veldkamp (00:17:57):

But my understanding is that the prosecutors released edited recordings of

Veldkamp (00:18:04):

Archbishop Bagrat discussing with his men,

Veldkamp (00:18:07):

and it sounded like they were talking about shooting people in order to take over

Veldkamp (00:18:11):

control of the government.

Veldkamp (00:18:14):

And in fact,

Veldkamp (00:18:15):

they were discussing once at a hypothetical point in the future that they have

Veldkamp (00:18:19):

become the government,

Veldkamp (00:18:21):

how will they manage desertions from the army?

Veldkamp (00:18:24):

So it was a complete fabrication.

Veldkamp (00:18:26):

It was a complete lie.

Veldkamp (00:18:28):

And the fact that they have all of these recordings shows that the archbishop and

Veldkamp (00:18:32):

his colleagues were under surveillance for a very long time.

Veldkamp (00:18:36):

And I'm sure if the government had something more incriminating,

Veldkamp (00:18:39):

we would have heard it many,

Veldkamp (00:18:40):

many times by now.

Veldkamp (00:18:41):

But in fact, the only reference to violence that we have was taken completely out of context.

Veldkamp (00:18:47):

So actually, there is no case against the Archbishop.

Veldkamp (00:18:50):

They have falsified evidence in order to detain an opposition figure.

Veldkamp (00:18:54):

That's an oral arm fire for human rights in Armenia.

Hovik (00:18:58):

Yeah,

Hovik (00:19:00):

and for the record,

Hovik (00:19:01):

your description is what I believe exactly also happened,

Hovik (00:19:05):

because I followed the Armenian media,

Hovik (00:19:07):

we followed Armenian media very closely,

Hovik (00:19:09):

and it was exactly where they released segments of a recording out of context,

Hovik (00:19:16):

and it's just reprehensible.

Hovik (00:19:18):

I'm just dumbfounded how this is going on,

Hovik (00:19:22):

but the government is trying to paint this,

Hovik (00:19:26):

and supporters of the government,

Hovik (00:19:28):

which unfortunately are not few,

Hovik (00:19:31):

and even in the West,

Hovik (00:19:32):

they're saying, well,

Hovik (00:19:33):

why is a clergy participating in a protest movement,

Hovik (00:19:40):

and this is an issue of separation of church and state,

Hovik (00:19:44):

even though it's not

Hovik (00:19:46):

As clean,

Hovik (00:19:47):

you know, maybe the government is doing some crooked things,

Hovik (00:19:51):

but it is in essence a separation of church and state.

Hovik (00:19:55):

Can you answer that?

Hovik (00:19:56):

Are clergy not allowed to express political opinions?

Veldkamp (00:20:00):

Of course they're allowed to express political opinions.

Veldkamp (00:20:02):

And this is what I say to all my American friends.

Veldkamp (00:20:05):

And I hear these same lines that you just mentioned.

Veldkamp (00:20:07):

from my friends who care about Armenia,

Veldkamp (00:20:09):

who want to help the people from Nagorno-Karabakh,

Veldkamp (00:20:12):

but they don't quite know what to think about this issue with the church.

Veldkamp (00:20:15):

And they'll say to me,

Veldkamp (00:20:16):

doesn't it disturb you,

Veldkamp (00:20:17):

Joel, that the archbishop was getting involved in politics?

Veldkamp (00:20:20):

And these are all Christian conservative Trump supporters from the United States.

Veldkamp (00:20:25):

And I say to them,

Veldkamp (00:20:26):

can you imagine what your response would be if President Biden had put a pastor in

Veldkamp (00:20:31):

jail for his political activities?

Veldkamp (00:20:34):

I can't imagine.

Veldkamp (00:20:35):

I cannot imagine what would happen.

Veldkamp (00:20:37):

And I think,

Veldkamp (00:20:39):

you know,

Veldkamp (00:20:40):

Americans have a hard time understanding the Armenian Apostolic Church,

Veldkamp (00:20:44):

right? It's the smells and the architecture and the strange clothing,

Veldkamp (00:20:48):

which of course is a wonderful part of the Armenian tradition,

Veldkamp (00:20:52):

but we don't get it,

Veldkamp (00:20:54):

right?

Veldkamp (00:20:55):

And we're all even kind of scared by it sometimes.

Hovik (00:20:58):

Since you talked about the Armenian Apostolic Church,

Hovik (00:21:01):

I'd like to talk a little bit more about that because in Washington,

Hovik (00:21:05):

in that briefing, you also said that the Armenian Apostolic Church is a super-mediating institution

Hovik (00:21:11):

that has preserved Armenia's identity for 1,700 years.

Hovik (00:21:16):

What are the consequences of the Pashinyan regime

Hovik (00:21:19):

doing this for Armenian society and national identity.

Hovik (00:21:23):

And if he succeeds in creating a future where the church essentially has no social

Hovik (00:21:27):

or political influence independent of the state.

Hovik (00:21:31):

Yeah,

Veldkamp (00:21:31):

I think the consequences are incalculable and really hard to anticipate because

Veldkamp (00:21:37):

Armenia has never seen such a traumatic invasion by the state into the church as

Veldkamp (00:21:42):

that,

Veldkamp (00:21:43):

at least not from an Armenian government.

Veldkamp (00:21:45):

Of course,

Veldkamp (00:21:46):

the Ottoman Empire and the Russian Empire and other states had various machinations

Veldkamp (00:21:51):

aimed at the church over the centuries.

Veldkamp (00:21:53):

But yeah, it's difficult to imagine how Armenia can keep its Christian identity

Veldkamp (00:22:01):

in the face of all the economic pressures,

Veldkamp (00:22:03):

political pressures,

Veldkamp (00:22:05):

the threat of war that it's under,

Veldkamp (00:22:07):

if it has no independent Christian institution that can unite the nation around a

Veldkamp (00:22:12):

common vision,

Veldkamp (00:22:13):

that can provide moral guidance,

Veldkamp (00:22:16):

And conservatives should get this in conservatives in the US,

Veldkamp (00:22:21):

I mean, and I chose the word media institution very thoughtfully because for conservatism

Veldkamp (00:22:27):

as an ideology,

Veldkamp (00:22:28):

the idea of media institutions is really,

Veldkamp (00:22:30):

really important.

Veldkamp (00:22:32):

Greg Scarlatoiu, Ph.D.: conservatives understand instinctively that against the power of the states

Veldkamp (00:22:37):

individuals have very little say right there might be formal rights in place,

Veldkamp (00:22:43):

but if you can't make yourself heard if you can't organize with other people if you

Veldkamp (00:22:47):

have no one else to call on.

Veldkamp (00:22:50):

then even the best constitution will devolve into tyranny.

Veldkamp (00:22:54):

So the Armenian church functions as a gathering place,

Veldkamp (00:22:58):

as a bulwark,

Veldkamp (00:22:59):

as another voice,

Veldkamp (00:23:00):

as a counterweight to the power of the state.

Veldkamp (00:23:03):

And that's really,

Veldkamp (00:23:04):

really important,

Veldkamp (00:23:05):

especially at a time when you have a prime minister who's,

Veldkamp (00:23:08):

in effect, trying to re-found the Armenian nation according to his own liking.

Asbed (00:23:13):

A lot of these groups seem to be silent and that's actually my next question right now.

Asbed (00:23:19):

Pashinyan's rise in 2018 was cheered by some of these fringe groups that treated

Asbed (00:23:25):

the Armenian church as an enemy almost and his government has since worked to

Asbed (00:23:29):

weaken the church role in national life.

Asbed (00:23:32):

Notably, his team has actually pushed out the legally mandated history of the Armenian

Asbed (00:23:36):

church from the schools and it's filled key educational posts with people who

Asbed (00:23:41):

openly mock the faith.

Asbed (00:23:43):

Pashinyan himself boasts that his life with Anna Hagopian is neither a church nor a

Asbed (00:23:47):

civil marriage,

Asbed (00:23:48):

yet now he claims to be a devout Armenian apostolic Christian.

Asbed (00:23:51):

And at the same time,

Asbed (00:23:52):

he's arresting clergy,

Asbed (00:23:53):

targeting church leaders,

Asbed (00:23:55):

trying to force the Catholicos out,

Asbed (00:23:57):

all while lobbying these Christian groups that we're talking about to polish his

Asbed (00:24:01):

image abroad.

Asbed (00:24:02):

The prayer breakfast you attended, of course, fits that pattern.

Asbed (00:24:06):

It's a show for the West while the government tightens its grip on the church.

Asbed (00:24:10):

Your organization is one of the few

Asbed (00:24:12):

that has been willing to call this out.

Asbed (00:24:14):

And I want to know why.

Asbed (00:24:15):

What's motivating these other Christian groups in the U.S.

Asbed (00:24:18):

to tacitly support Pashinyan even as he campaigns against Armenian Christians?

Veldkamp (00:24:24):

I think there are a couple factors at play.

Veldkamp (00:24:27):

One is that groups that don't know Armenia very well are hesitant to get involved

Veldkamp (00:24:33):

in what they see as fights between Armenians,

Veldkamp (00:24:35):

right?

Veldkamp (00:24:36):

Sure, but of course, they're Christians.

Asbed (00:24:38):

They should understand the Christian aspect.

Veldkamp (00:24:40):

And of course, this is a state that's persecuting a church, right?

Veldkamp (00:24:43):

And so for us, that's the much more important factor here.

Veldkamp (00:24:48):

So that's part of it, just like a fear of getting it wrong.

Veldkamp (00:24:53):

There are a lot of whispers in Washington that the Armenian church is somehow under

Veldkamp (00:24:58):

the influence of Russia.

Veldkamp (00:24:59):

And that is a very difficult accusation to overcome because you don't have to prove

Veldkamp (00:25:05):

it or even give any evidence for it,

Veldkamp (00:25:08):

for it to be very effective.

Veldkamp (00:25:10):

People hear the word Russia and they freeze and they say, well, we don't want to go there.

Veldkamp (00:25:14):

We really don't want to be on the wrong side of a Russian influence operation.

Veldkamp (00:25:18):

Even though, again,

Veldkamp (00:25:19):

there's no evidence whatsoever that the church is being used by Russia in Armenia.

Veldkamp (00:25:25):

And I think a lot of these groups that were at the prayer breakfast and that are

Veldkamp (00:25:32):

interested in Armenia for good reasons,

Veldkamp (00:25:33):

for reasons of Christian solidarity,

Veldkamp (00:25:36):

also are very pro-Trump.

Veldkamp (00:25:38):

And the Trump administration has basically picked up the Armenia policy of the

Veldkamp (00:25:43):

Biden administration unchanged.

Veldkamp (00:25:45):

They've been a lot louder about it and a lot more brash about it with the big White

Veldkamp (00:25:49):

House meeting between Aliyev and Pashinyan.

Veldkamp (00:25:51):

But the policy is basically the same.

Veldkamp (00:25:53):

And the policy is Armenia has to give Azerbaijan everything it wants so that

Veldkamp (00:25:58):

Azerbaijan will find a peace treaty with Armenia.

Veldkamp (00:26:00):

And then this region can come under the influence of the U.S.,

Veldkamp (00:26:05):

And these groups are really, they want to support Trump.

Veldkamp (00:26:08):

They don't want to go against the Trump administration.

Veldkamp (00:26:11):

And the mood in Washington as well is quite chilling, I can say.

Veldkamp (00:26:18):

It's not just that...

Veldkamp (00:26:20):

People have political objectives and are afraid of contributing those objectives.

Veldkamp (00:26:24):

It's a fear of getting shut out, a fear of losing donors, a fear of losing influence.

Veldkamp (00:26:29):

No one wants to go up against Trump.

Veldkamp (00:26:32):

And the threats from his administration in this regard are real.

Veldkamp (00:26:34):

Interesting.

Hovik (00:26:36):

You mentioned Trump supporters and Trump himself,

Hovik (00:26:39):

and my message to them would be,

Hovik (00:26:42):

have you ever heard of Russia-gate?

Hovik (00:26:44):

Because this seems to be exactly the same thing.

Hovik (00:26:48):

But since we're talking about the U.S.

Hovik (00:26:50):

government,

Hovik (00:26:51):

and you are right that currently there is unprecedented level of engagement between

Hovik (00:26:57):

Armenia and the U.S.,

Hovik (00:26:59):

The State Department is essentially silent on the attacks against the church.

Hovik (00:27:04):

So what would be your specific warning to President Trump or whatever

Hovik (00:27:09):

administration takes power in the future regarding how this campaign could actually

Hovik (00:27:14):

put US-mediated peace processes at risk

Hovik (00:27:20):

uh and uh bringing fragility to Armenia as an ally and also potentially undoing all

Hovik (00:27:26):

of the efforts even geopolitical efforts like if you want a foothold in the country

Hovik (00:27:31):

but you install a dictator instead you know uh what are the potential repercussions

Hovik (00:27:39):

of that

Veldkamp (00:27:40):

Yeah, I think the administration is engaged in really short-term thinking right now.

Veldkamp (00:27:44):

And they want to get a deal.

Veldkamp (00:27:46):

They want to get the Peace Prize for the president.

Veldkamp (00:27:49):

They want to accomplish these long-standing American objectives in the region.

Veldkamp (00:27:52):

And they think that they're so close.

Veldkamp (00:27:55):

And I would tell them,

Veldkamp (00:27:57):

you really need to take a step back and look at the kind of Armenia that you are

Veldkamp (00:28:01):

creating.

Veldkamp (00:28:03):

If the Armenia that you create is a one-party state controlled by one prime

Veldkamp (00:28:09):

minister who's widely disliked,

Veldkamp (00:28:11):

who makes policy in an erratic way,

Veldkamp (00:28:13):

in an unaccountable way,

Veldkamp (00:28:15):

that country is not going to be a very reliable ally for you.

Veldkamp (00:28:20):

At best,

Veldkamp (00:28:21):

it'll be a country that will do what you say,

Veldkamp (00:28:23):

but it's not going to be actually able to bring anything to the table.

Veldkamp (00:28:27):

And if,

Veldkamp (00:28:29):

even more,

Veldkamp (00:28:30):

if Armenia loses its national church or loses a church that has any kind of real

Veldkamp (00:28:35):

influence in politics and society,

Veldkamp (00:28:39):

then Armenia as a nation is severely weakened.

Veldkamp (00:28:42):

And there are people in the Trump administration who understand this,

Veldkamp (00:28:45):

again, instinctively,

Veldkamp (00:28:46):

that national identity is not something you can just trade away in exchange for a

Veldkamp (00:28:51):

trade agreement.

Veldkamp (00:28:52):

National identity is what makes a country strong and enables it to be a partner for

Veldkamp (00:28:58):

whatever the U.S. wants a partner to be.

Veldkamp (00:29:00):

So...

Veldkamp (00:29:03):

I think the Trump administration needs to reevaluate and consider what kind of

Veldkamp (00:29:07):

Armenia that they're creating.

Veldkamp (00:29:09):

If they end up creating an Armenia that's brittle and broken and divided,

Veldkamp (00:29:12):

where people don't feel safe,

Veldkamp (00:29:14):

then they might as well just give the whole place to Azerbaijan right now.

Veldkamp (00:29:17):

And I don't think that's what they want.

Veldkamp (00:29:19):

They don't want Azerbaijan to be calling all the shots all the time.

Veldkamp (00:29:22):

That would be a very bad policymaking for the United States.

Veldkamp (00:29:26):

So a strong Armenia is in the U.S.

Veldkamp (00:29:28):

's interests.

Veldkamp (00:29:29):

And right now they're creating a weak Armenia.

Hovik (00:29:32):

All right.

Hovik (00:29:33):

Well, thank you, Joel, for joining us today.

Hovik (00:29:36):

I really want to also thank your organization for doing God's work.

Hovik (00:29:42):

May God give you strength to continue doing this work worldwide.

Hovik (00:29:45):

And may our policymakers wise up and listen to Christian voices sometimes a little

Hovik (00:29:53):

bit carefully.

Asbed (00:29:54):

And the same goes for me as well, with deep appreciation for your work.

Asbed (00:29:59):

Amen.

Asbed (00:30:00):

Thank you both.

Hovik (00:30:01):

Thank you.

Asbed (00:30:03):

Okay, that's our show today.

Asbed (00:30:04):

This episode was recorded on November 25, 2025.

Asbed (00:30:07):

We've been talking with Dr.

Asbed (00:30:09):

Joel Weltkamp,

Asbed (00:30:10):

Director for Public Advocacy at Christian Solidarity International.

Asbed (00:30:14):

He also serves as CSI's representative at the United Nations in Geneva.

Asbed (00:30:19):

And since 2020,

Asbed (00:30:20):

he has been at the forefront of CSI's advocacy efforts for the Armenians of

Asbed (00:30:24):

Artsakh,

Asbed (00:30:25):

Nagorno-Karabakh.

Asbed (00:30:26):

He holds a PhD in international history from the Geneva Graduate Institute for his

Asbed (00:30:31):

thesis on the Armenian and Arabic-speaking Christians of Aleppo during the French

Asbed (00:30:35):

mandate.

Asbed (00:30:36):

For more information, go to our show notes, podcasts.groong.org/episode-number.

Hovik (00:30:42):

Folks, since this episode will likely be published very close to Thanksgiving,

Hovik (00:30:46):

I want to say that I'm very thankful to all of our supporters,

Hovik (00:30:52):

whether it's those that diligently write comments under every sort of podcast or

Hovik (00:30:59):

whether it's those who provide monetary support.

Hovik (00:31:03):

We are extremely thankful, and this really enables us to carry on.

Hovik (00:31:09):

And this gives us not just the, you know,

Hovik (00:31:13):

monetary means to do it, but also the emotional and moral support in order to do it.

Hovik (00:31:19):

And if you feel so inclined to donate,

Hovik (00:31:23):

then go to podcasts.groong.org/donate,

Hovik (00:31:26):

and you can do a one-time or monthly recurring donation.

Hovik (00:31:32):

And in all cases,

Hovik (00:31:35):

LIKE, COMMENT,

Hovik (00:31:36):

and SHARE this episode far and wide so that we can break through the algorithmic

Hovik (00:31:43):

jail that we sometimes find ourselves in.

Hovik (00:31:46):

I am Hovik Manucharyan, back in Yerevan.

Hovik (00:31:49):

And I'm Asbed Bedrossian in Los Angeles.

Hovik (00:31:52):

We'll talk to you soon.

Hovik (00:31:54):

Have a happy Thanksgiving.

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Asbed Bedrossian

Co-host
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Hovik Manucharyan

Co-host
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Joel Veldkamp

Guest

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