Armenian News Network - Groong: Week In Review Podcast

Dziunik Aghajanian - EU Ukraine Rift, Church Under Siege, and TRIPP Power Games | Ep 498, Dec 21, 2025

• Armenian News Network / Groong • Episode 498

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Groong Week in Review - December 21, 2025

Topics:

  • Ukraine War and EU Rift
  • Siege on Etchmiadzin and the Church
  • Peace Dividend or Political Theater
  • TRIPP and Competing Power Claims

Guest: Dziunik Aghajanian

Hosts:

Episode 498 | Recorded: December 23, 2025

SHOW NOTES: https://podcasts.groong.org/498

VIDEO: https://youtu.be/Ui21tqO_d2U

#ArmenianChurch #Etchmiadzin #TRIPP #ArmeniaPolitics #Groong


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Asbed (00:00:06):

Hello and welcome to the Armenian News Network Groong Week in Review for December 21, 2025.

Asbed (00:00:11):

Today we're talking with diplomat and former ambassador Dziunik Aghajanian.

Asbed (00:00:16):

Ambassador Aghajanian, welcome back.

Asbed (00:00:18):

Great to have you on the Groong podcast.

Dziunik (00:00:21):

Thank you for inviting.

Asbed (00:00:22):

You seem to be a great favorite of our listeners.

Asbed (00:00:25):

We are very happy to have you back.

Dziunik (00:00:27):

I'm happy to hear that.

Asbed (00:00:29):

Okay, well, I'm going to start with Ukraine because in the past week,

Asbed (00:00:32):

there have been a couple of updates on this front,

Asbed (00:00:34):

and then we'll move over to the domestic affairs.

Asbed (00:00:38):

So on the battlefield, Ukrainian troops seem to be withdrawing from the town of Siversk.

Asbed (00:00:42):

So their battlefronts seem to be collapsing.

Asbed (00:00:46):

There are shortages of manpower, weaponry, even power outages in various places.

Asbed (00:00:52):

And now European sources even are not lying about this stuff.

Asbed (00:00:56):

French President Emmanuel Macron agreed to hold discussions with Putin.

Asbed (00:01:00):

And this is a flip from his own hawkish stand only a few weeks ago.

Asbed (00:01:05):

Macron has also essentially blocked German Chancellor Mertz's initiative to

Asbed (00:01:09):

confiscate Russian assets and continue funding the Ukraine war with that.

Asbed (00:01:14):

And many European sources are reporting this as Macron has betrayed Mertz.

Asbed (00:01:20):

Macron is even lobbying Mertz to reopen dialogue with Russia to procure nuclear

Asbed (00:01:26):

power for some of their German nuclear power plants.

Asbed (00:01:30):

And finally,

Asbed (00:01:31):

a Russian Lieutenant General,

Asbed (00:01:33):

Fanil Sarvarov,

Asbed (00:01:35):

was assassinated with a car bomb in Moscow over the weekend.

Asbed (00:01:39):

Russia suspects Ukrainian special ops, but there's nothing from Ukraine on this thing.

Asbed (00:01:45):

So first of all, with this language of Macron betraying Mertz, what does it actually betray?

Asbed (00:01:53):

Is it a deep seated disunity division inside the EU,

Asbed (00:01:57):

especially as it comes regarding the war in Ukraine?

Asbed (00:02:01):

What is this a symptom of?

Dziunik (00:02:03):

Well, first, I don't think there is any betrayal.

Dziunik (00:02:06):

It's just they are calculating their positioning

Dziunik (00:02:12):

with regards to the coming developments.

Dziunik (00:02:16):

It is understandable for them that the Ukrainian front will not last long.

Dziunik (00:02:24):

At least they are trying to do their utmost using the Russian frozen assets to finance it.

Dziunik (00:02:32):

But even that is already deepening the divide between the European countries because they know

Dziunik (00:02:40):

that afterwards they will suffer worse consequences from the Russian side,

Dziunik (00:02:48):

also through different kind of court cases that will be devastating for the overall

Dziunik (00:02:54):

economy of the European countries.

Dziunik (00:02:57):

Because let's be honest,

Dziunik (00:02:59):

Europe and also London have been so far the haven for the finances from all over

Dziunik (00:03:09):

the world.

Dziunik (00:03:10):

being considered as the honest and safe banking places where you can keep your money.

Dziunik (00:03:19):

And that is also true for many countries.

Dziunik (00:03:24):

So the Middle Eastern countries,

Dziunik (00:03:27):

the Asian countries,

Dziunik (00:03:30):

some African countries will be giving a second thought whether to have their money

Dziunik (00:03:37):

still

Dziunik (00:03:38):

in the same position or move it to other much safer places,

Dziunik (00:03:43):

which will just kill the European economy.

Dziunik (00:03:46):

Because we know that the Ukrainian war has suffocated European economy and brought

Dziunik (00:03:54):

it to its knees.

Dziunik (00:03:57):

And now with the finances also flowing out of Europe,

Dziunik (00:04:01):

it will just be maybe the death march for the European Union,

Dziunik (00:04:06):

definitely.

Dziunik (00:04:07):

and very deadly blow for the individual countries.

Dziunik (00:04:12):

So they are already starting to position themselves so that at the right moment

Dziunik (00:04:18):

they can showcase themselves at the winner's table rather than at the loser's

Dziunik (00:04:26):

table.

Dziunik (00:04:27):

And many analysts give the example of the end of the World War II when

Dziunik (00:04:36):

I don't remember which general,

Dziunik (00:04:38):

but when he saw French generals also at the table of the winners,

Dziunik (00:04:44):

he was surprised knowing that the French leadership was very supportive of Hitler's

Dziunik (00:04:52):

actions.

Dziunik (00:04:53):

So I think overall, we will see this tendency of one step forward, two steps backward.

Dziunik (00:05:02):

in the coming months.

Dziunik (00:05:04):

And the most important development will come in the spring when I think with the

Dziunik (00:05:11):

blessing of the British and other very hawkish European countries,

Dziunik (00:05:18):

another attempt will be made in the Ukrainian front to change the situation.

Dziunik (00:05:24):

But I don't think it's going to be very useful.

Dziunik (00:05:28):

And the current terrorist attacks on different military personnel and also

Dziunik (00:05:34):

facilities within Russia,

Dziunik (00:05:38):

deep in the Russian country,

Dziunik (00:05:41):

in the state,

Dziunik (00:05:42):

is also evidence that they are using very dirty methods to gain some support

Dziunik (00:05:49):

towards changing the Russian position over the Ukrainian

Dziunik (00:05:55):

negotiations.

Dziunik (00:05:56):

So this is, I think, what is being hooked there.

Dziunik (00:06:00):

And as the situation gets worse,

Dziunik (00:06:03):

we will see more countries trying to get as much as possible from the situation by

Dziunik (00:06:12):

starting some kind of indirect or secret negotiations with Russians so that they

Dziunik (00:06:20):

can safeguard themselves after the

Dziunik (00:06:24):

real fall of Ukraine and some kind of a paper being signed to put a full stop to

Dziunik (00:06:30):

this terrible adventure that took millions of lives.

Asbed (00:06:36):

As the collapse of the Ukrainian fronts are coming closer,

Asbed (00:06:40):

it seems like the stakes are getting higher.

Asbed (00:06:43):

Would you say that this is precipitating a further division or further

Asbed (00:06:48):

consolidation within Europe to come to an agreement as to how to end this conflict?

Asbed (00:06:54):

Because so far they've been extremely hawkish.

Asbed (00:06:56):

They've avoided all kinds of solutions to come to an agreement with Russia.

Asbed (00:07:02):

So I'm just wondering if the collapse of these fronts is bringing Europe to

Asbed (00:07:09):

actually come to a solution.

Dziunik (00:07:12):

No, it's not going to bring to consolidation.

Dziunik (00:07:15):

It's going to deepen the divide between European countries.

Dziunik (00:07:19):

But as we say in Armenian,

Dziunik (00:07:22):

just European countries,

Dziunik (00:07:25):

especially those that were hoping to grasp a big piece from the construction of

Dziunik (00:07:34):

Russia,

Dziunik (00:07:35):

and they failed in their hopes.

Dziunik (00:07:39):

I think those countries understand the consequences of

Dziunik (00:07:45):

and the negotiations that are being conducted without any consideration of their interest.

Dziunik (00:07:51):

And they are simply trying to sell themselves at a higher cost so that they can

Dziunik (00:07:59):

have their seat at the table in the coming world order.

Dziunik (00:08:04):

Let's not forget that two of the members of the UN Security Council

Dziunik (00:08:12):

are within the European Union,

Dziunik (00:08:16):

European continent,

Dziunik (00:08:17):

and part of the most supportive countries to Ukraine.

Dziunik (00:08:22):

And with a changing world order, they might just be thrown out of the Security Council.

Dziunik (00:08:28):

So they are trying to safeguard their future positions by playing this kind of a

Dziunik (00:08:36):

hawkish,

Dziunik (00:08:37):

hard game and trying to keep Ukraine fighting

Dziunik (00:08:42):

hoping that at the end of the day,

Dziunik (00:08:48):

there will be something thrown to themselves as a compromise for their agreement to

Dziunik (00:08:52):

stop financing and supporting Ukraine.

Asbed (00:08:55):

What kind of outcomes do you see at present on the Ukraine front itself?

Asbed (00:09:00):

Is Russia feeling confident enough of the outcome there?

Asbed (00:09:04):

And do you see it turning more of its attention towards other places like the South Caucasus?

Dziunik (00:09:10):

Well, Russia is confident of the outcome.

Dziunik (00:09:12):

I think they have surpassed the hardest part and they know how to overcome certain

Dziunik (00:09:24):

very difficult constructs that have been put there with the support of NATO

Dziunik (00:09:30):

countries.

Dziunik (00:09:32):

But I don't think that Russia has turned fully to other regions yet.

Dziunik (00:09:37):

Of course,

Dziunik (00:09:38):

Russia is very concerned about the developments in the South Caucasus,

Dziunik (00:09:42):

especially in Armenia,

Dziunik (00:09:44):

because it will directly hit Russia and open doors for other hotspots to be

Dziunik (00:09:54):

instigated that would put Russia in a very dangerous situation.

Dziunik (00:10:01):

And Russia is doing everything not to allow those developments

Dziunik (00:10:06):

to go further, be it in the South Caucasus or in Central Asia.

Dziunik (00:10:11):

But unfortunately,

Dziunik (00:10:13):

at the given situation,

Dziunik (00:10:17):

Russia cannot act very directly and the way they used to in a very stubborn way.

Dziunik (00:10:25):

So they are trying to be more soft policy oriented, trying to keep the people of those countries

Dziunik (00:10:35):

still within their orbit, knowing well what the leadership is doing.

Hovik (00:10:43):

Okay, Dziunik, let's bring it back to Armenia and right directly to internal politics.

Hovik (00:10:51):

Pashinyan has publicly denied

Hovik (00:10:54):

that the Armenian state is campaigning against the church,

Hovik (00:10:58):

yet he has framed it as a personal endeavor,

Hovik (00:11:04):

as an alleged Christian,

Hovik (00:11:07):

alleged follower of the Armenian Apostolic Church.

Hovik (00:11:10):

Yet, events last week around Holy Etchmiadzin provided, I would say, yet another proof

Hovik (00:11:14):

of a coordinated state pressure and coordination of the state around this issue.

Hovik (00:11:20):

Ten renegade archbishops announced plans to enter Etchmiadzin during an evening

Hovik (00:11:25):

worship service to push for the Catholicos' resignation,

Hovik (00:11:30):

or in their own words,

Hovik (00:11:32):

they said that to send him to rest.

Hovik (00:11:36):

Pashinyan's posturing around this was very interesting.

Hovik (00:11:38):

He said, you know, the government, this is not a government initiative,

Hovik (00:11:44):

but he openly supported the issue.

Hovik (00:11:47):

At the same time,

Hovik (00:11:48):

authorities sent National Security Service NSS agents to monitor liturgies and

Hovik (00:11:57):

block the mentioning of Catholicos' name.

Hovik (00:12:00):

The authorities have withheld help in reclaiming seized church property,

Hovik (00:12:06):

for instance,

Hovik (00:12:07):

the Hovannavank Monastery,

Hovik (00:12:08):

which has been seized from the church.

Hovik (00:12:11):

And they provide regularly security to the pro-Pashinyan clergy, like they did in Etchmiadzin.

Hovik (00:12:18):

So plainclothes agents,

Hovik (00:12:21):

identified later as Red Berets,

Hovik (00:12:25):

along with police units,

Hovik (00:12:26):

escorted the bishops.

Hovik (00:12:28):

And this priest,

Hovik (00:12:31):

Stepan Asatryan,

Hovik (00:12:33):

who arrived in a car with removed license plates and also escort vehicles to

Hovik (00:12:39):

Etchmiadzin.

Hovik (00:12:40):

So it was a very big commotion.

Hovik (00:12:42):

But despite this backing, this overt backing by the state,

Hovik (00:12:46):

the group of renegade bishops was confronted by five to ten thousand supporters of

Hovik (00:12:52):

the Catholicos underscoring the depth of the public resistance to this issue and as

Hovik (00:12:57):

a result the bishops weren't able to enter the church where the service was being

Hovik (00:13:02):

performed by the Catholicos how would you characterize what happened last Thursday

Hovik (00:13:07):

and do you think that this is a rare victory for the people and the opposition over

Dziunik (00:13:11):

pashinyan i don't think it's a rare victory it was a

Dziunik (00:13:16):

logical outcome of the situation,

Dziunik (00:13:18):

given the attitude towards the Church and the Catholicos in the country.

Dziunik (00:13:25):

Everyone understands that this is Pashinyan-initiated adventure,

Dziunik (00:13:30):

which aims to bring Church to its knees and make it as adaptable to his own orders

Dziunik (00:13:39):

and wishes as possible.

Dziunik (00:13:42):

And it falls in the same

Dziunik (00:13:44):

line with the demands of coming from Turkey and Azerbaijan.

Dziunik (00:13:50):

And the main purpose for it is also to ensure that there is no resistance from

Dziunik (00:13:56):

wherever in the coming elections or with regards to the coming concessions that is

Dziunik (00:14:06):

being currently prepared for Azerbaijan and Turkey.

Dziunik (00:14:13):

So no matter what Pashinyan says,

Dziunik (00:14:15):

everybody understand that it is his initiative,

Dziunik (00:14:20):

it is his goal,

Dziunik (00:14:21):

and it is aimed at the church.

Dziunik (00:14:24):

It's not on personal or individual liking or disliking of this or that clergy.

Dziunik (00:14:31):

It is aimed at the destruction of the Armenian church as one of the pillars for the

Dziunik (00:14:39):

Armenian identity and Armenian resistance

Dziunik (00:14:42):

not only in Armenia, but also in diaspora.

Dziunik (00:14:45):

So he is not going to give up.

Dziunik (00:14:49):

What happened last Sunday,

Dziunik (00:14:52):

it was a trial,

Dziunik (00:14:53):

a testing of how successful they would be,

Dziunik (00:14:59):

and also trying to show as if he has nothing to do,

Dziunik (00:15:03):

but it's an internal church discussion that is being brought out into the public.

Dziunik (00:15:10):

And I think he's going to continue with it using all the leverages that authorities have.

Dziunik (00:15:18):

And here I would mention that state has nothing to do with it.

Dziunik (00:15:22):

It's just the government and the person sitting as the one ruling currently, the country.

Dziunik (00:15:31):

It has nothing to do with the state.

Dziunik (00:15:33):

And everybody in Armenia also puts a line between state

Dziunik (00:15:39):

and Pashinyan's government and also his actions with regards to the church as part

Dziunik (00:15:46):

of his very long standing position to kind of reshape the Armenian identity into

Dziunik (00:15:54):

something of Turkish liking or something that will be very shapeless and unable to

Dziunik (00:16:04):

resist

Dziunik (00:16:06):

whatever is coming as a demand from outside.

Dziunik (00:16:09):

So the hardest part is yet to come.

Dziunik (00:16:13):

If I'm not mistaken,

Dziunik (00:16:15):

rumors are he's going to have another attack on Etchmiadzin in this coming Sunday.

Dziunik (00:16:22):

And I hope that the people will stand as support to the church as it has shown for

Dziunik (00:16:33):

the past months.

Dziunik (00:16:36):

And I think the understanding in the public is growing that this has nothing to do

Dziunik (00:16:43):

with whatever compromises or whatever cooked information is being thrown into the

Dziunik (00:16:51):

public to justify their actions.

Dziunik (00:16:54):

So I think this is what is happening here.

Hovik (00:16:58):

Yeah, I think I understand what you mean that the state has nothing to do with it,

Hovik (00:17:01):

because I believe the legitimate interests of the state depend on a strong identity

Hovik (00:17:07):

and association with the Armenian church,

Hovik (00:17:09):

given that the Armenian state is one of the first in the world to have adopted

Hovik (00:17:15):

Christianity as its official religion.

Hovik (00:17:17):

But I think it's important to highlight that

Hovik (00:17:21):

state resources and in a not insignificant way are being used in this persecution

Hovik (00:17:28):

of the church.

Dziunik (00:17:29):

Which is also illegal.

Dziunik (00:17:31):

Both the actions, the attempt, the intent

Dziunik (00:17:38):

and the way it is being conducted,

Dziunik (00:17:42):

everything is illegal according to Armenian legislation and requirements of

Dziunik (00:17:48):

international law.

Dziunik (00:17:49):

So this is totally an illegal action and it only serves the demands of coming from

Dziunik (00:17:55):

Turkey and Azerbaijan.

Hovik (00:17:58):

So a day after that,

Hovik (00:18:01):

Disgraceful incident in Etchmiadzin.

Hovik (00:18:05):

Civic AM,

Hovik (00:18:06):

a site linked to Pashinyan,

Hovik (00:18:08):

and especially his aide,

Hovik (00:18:10):

Taron Chakhoyan,

Hovik (00:18:11):

published a purportedly declassified,

Hovik (00:18:14):

in quotes,

Hovik (00:18:15):

KGB document

Hovik (00:18:17):

alleging that the Catholicos' brother,

Hovik (00:18:21):

Archbishop Yezras,

Hovik (00:18:22):

who is currently serving in Russia,

Hovik (00:18:25):

and he's part of the Armenian Church in Russia,

Hovik (00:18:30):

let me just clarify,

Hovik (00:18:33):

had collaborated with the KGB in 1986 to 1988,

Hovik (00:18:34):

a period when Armenia was part of the USSR,

Hovik (00:18:42):

And I would say that cooperation with state bodies was widely seen perhaps as

Hovik (00:18:47):

normal or even patriotic.

Hovik (00:18:49):

But this claim loosely tracks Pashinyan's own prior talking points.

Hovik (00:18:54):

Pashinyan has accused the Catholicos of being sort of, you know,

Hovik (00:19:01):

associated with the Russian or foreign intelligence.

Hovik (00:19:07):

I think the hint was that he's associated with the Russian KGB,

Hovik (00:19:10):

although no proof has been furnished so far regarding the Catholicos himself.

Hovik (00:19:16):

Anyway, this document that was...

Hovik (00:19:19):

I don't even want to say declassified because it seems like an obvious fake.

Hovik (00:19:24):

It has multiple anomalies.

Hovik (00:19:26):

It lacks standard KGB details.

Hovik (00:19:29):

We have seen other documents leaked from the KGB.

Hovik (00:19:33):

And in all those, everything is completely filled out, like the birth date, nationality.

Hovik (00:19:40):

KGB documents you know Russian was the state language in 1986 before the fall of

Hovik (00:19:47):

the ussr so uh all documents would be expected to be in Russian uh yet this one

Hovik (00:19:54):

appears to be in armenian and curiously uh for a 40 year old document it appeared

Hovik (00:20:03):

to be very very white uh you know if I may say so myself I remember that it's an a4

Dziunik (00:20:09):

paper

Hovik (00:20:11):

Yes, I have some documents from that time myself, not even that time.

Hovik (00:20:16):

I have some documents that I personally hand wrote in the 2000s related to like,

Hovik (00:20:23):

you know,

Hovik (00:20:24):

I grew even like it was interesting.

Hovik (00:20:26):

I plan to share it one day.

Hovik (00:20:28):

But they have become all yellow,

Hovik (00:20:30):

and I've been having trouble trying to figure out how to keep it white,

Hovik (00:20:35):

but I guess the KGB has some special technology to archive those documents.

Hovik (00:20:42):

Anyway, so despite all the red flags that this is a forgery, let's assume the document is real.

Hovik (00:20:48):

For one second, let's just humor Pashinyan.

Hovik (00:20:51):

Is collaborating with intelligence agencies of your state a crime now,

Hovik (00:20:56):

And what does this alleged collaboration from 1986 to 1988 by the brother of the

Hovik (00:21:05):

Catholicos have anything to do with the Catholicos himself more than four years

Hovik (00:21:09):

after the fact?

Asbed (00:21:10):

Well, let me also take this up then.

Asbed (00:21:14):

I don't believe that collaborating with your state against your people is ever any good.

Asbed (00:21:18):

How would you feel about people who are collaborating with Pashinyan's government

Asbed (00:21:24):

and spying on the people and turning you over because you haven't done anything

Asbed (00:21:28):

wrong,

Asbed (00:21:29):

but you've done something that Pashinyan doesn't like?

Hovik (00:21:31):

Is that a good thing?

Hovik (00:21:33):

I think that,

Hovik (00:21:34):

yes, there are differences,

Hovik (00:21:35):

different flavors of collaboration,

Hovik (00:21:36):

but I don't think the Soviet leadership in the 1980s was essentially an

Hovik (00:21:45):

occupational regime like the Armenian government is.

Hovik (00:21:48):

I would say collaborating with, for instance, the argument I would bring is Vichy France.

Hovik (00:21:52):

Yes, I think collaborating with the Vichy government in France would be against your people.

Asbed (00:21:58):

Yes, but the Germans were basically an occupational government, right?

Asbed (00:22:04):

The Vichy was an occupational government.

Asbed (00:22:06):

But the Soviet regime was not an occupational one.

Asbed (00:22:09):

Theoretically, Armenia and all the other states joined a union.

Hovik (00:22:13):

Yeah, so that's my point.

Hovik (00:22:15):

Yes, exactly.

Dziunik (00:22:16):

Well, I think it's a philosophical discussion.

Dziunik (00:22:18):

And if we have a negative attitude towards recruiting agents,

Dziunik (00:22:24):

then it means all the secret services will be closed and nobody will be conducting

Dziunik (00:22:29):

any intelligent services.

Dziunik (00:22:32):

As you rightfully mentioned, it's an obvious falsification.

Dziunik (00:22:37):

Even the print font,

Dziunik (00:22:40):

the font by which it is printed,

Dziunik (00:22:42):

it is a Microsoft Word-generated font,

Dziunik (00:22:45):

and it is obvious that it couldn't have existed in the 80s because then anybody who

Dziunik (00:22:52):

has ever filled a document during the Soviet time,

Dziunik (00:22:58):

they remember that the forms were coming out from the printing houses,

Dziunik (00:23:03):

ready-made, and you were filling it,

Dziunik (00:23:05):

and you were right.

Dziunik (00:23:07):

The paper itself was yellowish.

Dziunik (00:23:09):

It was never white.

Dziunik (00:23:12):

So it was a special printing.

Dziunik (00:23:15):

And if I'm not mistaken,

Dziunik (00:23:17):

certain printing houses were only allowed to print those forms that were supposed

Dziunik (00:23:26):

to be filled every single line fully.

Dziunik (00:23:31):

not abbreviations, not missing anything.

Dziunik (00:23:35):

You couldn't have missed any sentence or any position.

Dziunik (00:23:40):

Even if it didn't exist, you had to write there that it is not applicable.

Dziunik (00:23:45):

And I think it's the same with any other normal country filling any document.

Dziunik (00:23:50):

This is an obvious forgery.

Dziunik (00:23:53):

So what it intended to do, I think it was in preparation for first

Dziunik (00:24:02):

arresting Ezras Srbazan when he was supposed to come and join the Episcopal Council

Dziunik (00:24:10):

meeting and that was one of the threats that made the Catholicos to reconsider

Dziunik (00:24:18):

having the council at that time because then all the diocesan bodies will be left

Dziunik (00:24:26):

without their leaders and it would have been easier to

Dziunik (00:24:31):

kill the church and its leadership.

Dziunik (00:24:34):

Secondly,

Dziunik (00:24:36):

I think what they were trying to manipulate is the general negative attitude of the

Dziunik (00:24:45):

people in Armenia towards any agent.

Dziunik (00:24:48):

And the KGB agent labeling

Dziunik (00:24:51):

is being used to have this kind of negative attitude towards Ezras Srbazan,

Dziunik (00:25:01):

growing the public with its shadow being thrown over the Catholicos and justifying

Dziunik (00:25:09):

their actions,

Dziunik (00:25:10):

which he actually mentioned in one of his interviews that

Dziunik (00:25:15):

It would be considered as a security threat.

Dziunik (00:25:18):

So indirectly getting to Catholicos and possibly trying to arrest him or at least

Dziunik (00:25:24):

threaten with arrest to Catholicos.

Dziunik (00:25:29):

You know, I don't know how these security services work internally.

Dziunik (00:25:37):

But I think during the Soviet time,

Dziunik (00:25:40):

especially with the position that the clergy were working outside of the country,

Dziunik (00:25:47):

that was also part of the rule that they had to have some kind of a working

Dziunik (00:25:54):

relationship with the intelligence services of the country.

Dziunik (00:25:58):

And Ezras Srbazan was posted in Germany, and that is where this whole

Dziunik (00:26:05):

I think, rumor started to spread.

Dziunik (00:26:08):

Nobody knows whether there was any truth to that.

Dziunik (00:26:12):

But I remember even during my student times,

Dziunik (00:26:15):

there were rumors that in certain faculties,

Dziunik (00:26:19):

especially in the Faculty of Oriental Languages,

Dziunik (00:26:23):

if you wanted to be able to work outside of the country,

Dziunik (00:26:27):

which was part of the work that translators were doing,

Dziunik (00:26:31):

you were forced to sign an agreement with the security services so that they could

Dziunik (00:26:38):

trust you and they have some kind of a control over you and you don't become an

Dziunik (00:26:43):

agent or a double agent for a foreign country.

Dziunik (00:26:47):

It's a very difficult thing to consider.

Dziunik (00:26:50):

But let's go to the total aim of this rumor being spread.

Dziunik (00:26:57):

First,

Dziunik (00:26:58):

to have some kind of a legitimate justification for the arrest of Ezras Srbazan

Dziunik (00:27:04):

once he steps into Armenia.

Dziunik (00:27:07):

Secondly, to have this kind of agent-related,

Dziunik (00:27:12):

indirect accusations towards Catholicos and the clergy in the church.

Dziunik (00:27:20):

And thirdly, to attempt to get some kind of a negative

Dziunik (00:27:25):

attitude towards certain members of the church,

Dziunik (00:27:29):

hoping that it will help garner the public support towards his actions.

Dziunik (00:27:34):

It's not going to happen.

Hovik (00:27:37):

In the background,

Hovik (00:27:38):

as I'm thinking about all of this,

Hovik (00:27:41):

of course, we established that the National Security Service has not

Hovik (00:27:46):

I believe come out and said this is an authentic document,

Hovik (00:27:48):

if I'm not mistaken,

Hovik (00:27:50):

but at the same time they have not said this is inauthentic,

Hovik (00:27:53):

they have not denied it.

Dziunik (00:27:55):

It has been published in the media that is directly related to the political party

Dziunik (00:28:05):

that Pashinyan is leading.

Dziunik (00:28:07):

So it's like their publishing house in that sense.

Dziunik (00:28:12):

And every even statement nowadays coming out on behalf of the archbishops and

Dziunik (00:28:17):

bishops is being published there and nobody knows,

Dziunik (00:28:20):

even the language has changed.

Dziunik (00:28:21):

And it becomes obvious that it's been written in the administration or in the

Dziunik (00:28:27):

backyards of Pashinyan administration and simply being published there so that it

Dziunik (00:28:31):

goes into the public.

Dziunik (00:28:33):

It is just the media that is being used for their own purposes.

Hovik (00:28:38):

But my point was,

Hovik (00:28:41):

someone at the National Security Service has to quietly sit on their hands and

Hovik (00:28:47):

watch what's happening and not say anything,

Hovik (00:28:50):

tacitly approving or agreeing with these policies.

Hovik (00:28:55):

Not just the release of this forgery,

Hovik (00:28:57):

or let's say,

Hovik (00:28:58):

even if it's real,

Hovik (00:28:59):

whatever,

Hovik (00:29:00):

not saying anything about it,

Hovik (00:29:02):

but at the same time,

Hovik (00:29:04):

sending their agents to dioceses,

Hovik (00:29:07):

to churches across Armenia and saying,

Hovik (00:29:10):

don't you mention the Catholicos' name when Pashinyan is there?

Hovik (00:29:13):

I mean... Well, let's remember that they all report to Pashinyan.

Asbed (00:29:20):

Of course, yeah.

Dziunik (00:29:21):

And they're following orders.

Asbed (00:29:23):

Absolutely.

Dziunik (00:29:23):

The justification given is they're following orders,

Dziunik (00:29:27):

which is not a justification because it's beyond their functioning

Dziunik (00:29:32):

responsibilities.

Dziunik (00:29:33):

It totally goes beyond.

Dziunik (00:29:35):

But nobody, you know, they have decreased the role of the National Security Service.

Hovik (00:29:40):

That was what I was leading at.

Dziunik (00:29:42):

Yeah,

Dziunik (00:29:43):

they created this kind of intelligence service upon which a lady is sitting and

Dziunik (00:29:50):

it's being fully,

Dziunik (00:29:51):

if I'm not mistaken,

Dziunik (00:29:54):

even some British experts are working there.

Dziunik (00:29:58):

So it's under foreign occupation, I would say.

Dziunik (00:30:02):

So there's nothing

Dziunik (00:30:03):

in our national security service that serves our nation currently.

Dziunik (00:30:08):

It is just serving the orders coming from above,

Dziunik (00:30:13):

and those that do not agree and cannot stand it anymore,

Dziunik (00:30:17):

they just do get out of the system.

Dziunik (00:30:20):

So a lot of valuable professionals have left the system, and it shows.

Dziunik (00:30:30):

The joke is,

Dziunik (00:30:32):

I don't know whether you remember or not,

Dziunik (00:30:34):

do you remember when he was asking the National Security Service to search for the

Dziunik (00:30:39):

devil?

Dziunik (00:30:41):

Yes.

Dziunik (00:30:43):

It's just a joke.

Dziunik (00:30:45):

I mean, he's treating them as simply a stick that he's using to hit this or that

Dziunik (00:30:52):

institution,

Dziunik (00:30:54):

given that many people still don't want to deal with them and don't want to find

Dziunik (00:30:59):

themselves in different kind of jails.

Dziunik (00:31:01):

So this is simply what has been.

Dziunik (00:31:04):

It's terror on the state level, I would say.

Dziunik (00:31:08):

And he is using all the institutions that work with him.

Dziunik (00:31:12):

And many there, they don't agree to what is happening.

Dziunik (00:31:17):

But they say we have to feed our families and we can't do anything else.

Dziunik (00:31:23):

It's a moral thing.

Dziunik (00:31:24):

Now we are getting into this moral stage when following orders becomes too

Dziunik (00:31:32):

dangerous,

Dziunik (00:31:33):

you know,

Dziunik (00:31:34):

with church and with belief and with God,

Dziunik (00:31:37):

getting into the scene of attacking your own church is really very psychologically

Dziunik (00:31:44):

very difficult for many people.

Dziunik (00:31:46):

And I hope this will make them rethink their actions.

Asbed (00:31:52):

Ambassador,

Asbed (00:31:53):

let's talk a little bit about the flourishing economic trade activity between

Asbed (00:31:58):

Armenia and Azerbaijan.

Dziunik (00:32:00):

Where do you find it?

Asbed (00:32:02):

Where do we find it?

Hovik (00:32:04):

Well, it's in the... It's in the civil contract newspapers.

Hovik (00:32:07):

Yes.

Hovik (00:32:08):

That's right.

Hovik (00:32:09):

Where do you find it?

Asbed (00:32:09):

That's right.

Asbed (00:32:10):

Well,

Asbed (00:32:11):

if you listen to Pashinyan,

Asbed (00:32:13):

his government greeted with heavy publicity what it called the first bilateral

Asbed (00:32:17):

commercial transaction with Azerbaijan in decades.

Asbed (00:32:20):

Yeah. Marked by the arrival of Azerbaijani fuel to Armenia via Georgia,

Asbed (00:32:25):

with reports that companies linked to Grzo,

Asbed (00:32:27):

this is the government-linked oligarch, Khachatur Sukiasyan,

Asbed (00:32:32):

and he will apparently distribute the gasoline locally through his outlets.

Asbed (00:32:37):

Armenia's fuel supply has traditionally come from Iran and Russia.

Asbed (00:32:41):

And when he turns to the West,

Asbed (00:32:43):

Pashinyan tells about reducing Armenia's dependence on Russia when he turns East.

Asbed (00:32:49):

For example,

Asbed (00:32:50):

he discussed the deal at the Eurasian Economic Union last week,

Asbed (00:32:54):

and he declared it as an early peace dividend tied to the transport and logistic

Asbed (00:32:59):

cooperation under the August 8 Washington framework.

Asbed (00:33:04):

This narrative,

Asbed (00:33:05):

however, raises basic questions that point to a political gesture rather than a market

Asbed (00:33:10):

transaction.

Asbed (00:33:11):

Georgia granted a one-time waiver of transit fees,

Asbed (00:33:14):

and Armenia and Azerbaijan still lack any kind of a format for relations to

Asbed (00:33:18):

government contracts and disputes and insurance or anything,

Asbed (00:33:22):

as a matter of fact.

Asbed (00:33:23):

Yeah, nothing.

Asbed (00:33:24):

The result has been, well, there has been a one-time arrival of a fuel shipment.

Asbed (00:33:30):

But there's been a broad public backlash about this with many Armenians asking

Asbed (00:33:34):

whether decades of war,

Asbed (00:33:36):

heavy losses, 5,000 people lost,

Asbed (00:33:38):

the abandonment of Artsakh were all for cheap oil from Azerbaijan or presumably

Asbed (00:33:45):

cheap oil from Azerbaijan.

Asbed (00:33:47):

So how do you see this?

Asbed (00:33:49):

Is this commerce driving peace or is this a political theater?

Dziunik (00:33:53):

No, it's a political theater and everybody understands it's a political theater with a

Dziunik (00:33:59):

main purpose of showing that they really have achieved some kind of a peace and he

Dziunik (00:34:07):

will be using it in the coming elections for its campaigning.

Dziunik (00:34:11):

It's just a political theater.

Dziunik (00:34:15):

Let's not forget that the kind of patrol that is being imported from Azerbaijan,

Dziunik (00:34:22):

even Azerbaijan is importing this patrol.

Dziunik (00:34:25):

He doesn't have enough

Dziunik (00:34:26):

for his own resources.

Dziunik (00:34:28):

He's importing it from Russia and Iran.

Dziunik (00:34:30):

And it seems that we are just filling the coffers of Azerbaijan by having the same

Dziunik (00:34:38):

Russian and Iranian oil or patrol being transported to Azerbaijan,

Dziunik (00:34:44):

whereas we can get it directly from Iran or we used to get it from Russia.

Dziunik (00:34:50):

through Georgia.

Asbed (00:34:52):

Can I interject for a second?

Asbed (00:34:54):

Like boss, like slave.

Asbed (00:34:55):

Because even the EU, Europe is doing the same thing.

Asbed (00:35:00):

They're basically consuming Russian gas.

Dziunik (00:35:02):

They're getting the Russian oil and Russian gas.

Dziunik (00:35:06):

But the oil as well.

Dziunik (00:35:08):

They are paying three times more for the same oil.

Asbed (00:35:12):

To get it rebranded as Azeri oil.

Dziunik (00:35:14):

Yeah, rebranded as Azeri oil.

Dziunik (00:35:16):

So I think it's the same thing.

Dziunik (00:35:20):

So he's going to use it for the purposes of his campaigning.

Dziunik (00:35:26):

But there is another thing that made me think,

Dziunik (00:35:29):

given his last meeting with Putin and his request that he actually announced,

Dziunik (00:35:38):

gave an announcement before leaving for St.

Dziunik (00:35:41):

Petersburg. And then he kind of depicted it in his speech with Putin.

Dziunik (00:35:49):

And the thing is that I think he's trying to show as if it is beneficial for Russia

Dziunik (00:35:56):

as well to use the rail connection from Azerbaijan coming to Armenia and then

Dziunik (00:36:03):

convince the Russian side to reconstruct the missing parts of Armenian railroad in

Dziunik (00:36:10):

the Kazakh area and the one connecting to Nakhijevan from Yeraskh in the Yeraskh part

Dziunik (00:36:17):

and also to Turkey.

Dziunik (00:36:19):

The thing is that in 2026,

Dziunik (00:36:21):

if I'm not mistaken,

Dziunik (00:36:24):

the right for the use of Armenia railways for the Russian

Dziunik (00:36:31):

is coming to an end.

Dziunik (00:36:33):

So there should be either an extension or it should be put for the tender for

Dziunik (00:36:40):

whoever comes to manage it.

Dziunik (00:36:42):

So I think he's starting a trade with the Russian side,

Dziunik (00:36:48):

giving the understanding in a very indirect form that if you want your

Dziunik (00:36:54):

rights to be continued, to be extended.

Dziunik (00:36:57):

You should build this part of the missing rail because this is part of also the

Dziunik (00:37:04):

existing railroad system.

Dziunik (00:37:06):

But don't even think about the southern part, the trip.

Dziunik (00:37:11):

So this is kind of the carrot that he's trying to give to Russians.

Dziunik (00:37:16):

Also not to oppose

Dziunik (00:37:21):

whatever being constructed and under what kind of conditions it is being

Dziunik (00:37:27):

constructed in the south of the country,

Dziunik (00:37:30):

bordering Iran.

Dziunik (00:37:31):

But I don't think the Russian side will give up his own intentions and interests that easily.

Dziunik (00:37:40):

I think we'll see more vivid...

Dziunik (00:37:45):

examples of the intentions coming out very soon, possibly after New Year holidays.

Dziunik (00:37:52):

So this, as we say, the waters will clear and the real intent will be understandable very soon.

Hovik (00:38:02):

Tunijan, you mentioned TRIP, so I want to actually add a few questions about that.

Hovik (00:38:08):

The dispute over TRIP, I think, highlights a direct clash between U.S.

Hovik (00:38:13):

and Russian versions of unblocking Armenia-Azerbaijan communications.

Hovik (00:38:19):

Point number nine of the November 10 statement from 2020 explicitly assigns Russian

Hovik (00:38:26):

troops responsibility for control over transit routes through Armenia.

Hovik (00:38:32):

A detail that Moscow reminds us from time to time,

Hovik (00:38:37):

despite us seeing Armenia go to Washington and sign this TRIP agreement.

Hovik (00:38:43):

So last week,

Hovik (00:38:44):

Russian officials again said that they were ready to discuss participation in TRIP,

Hovik (00:38:49):

citing Russia's railway concession in Armenia,

Hovik (00:38:53):

the presence of Russian border guards along much of the route,

Hovik (00:38:56):

and Armenia's membership in the Eurasian Economic Union,

Hovik (00:38:59):

which is an interesting

Hovik (00:39:01):

factor to consider here because uh membership in the eaeu um you know gives some

Hovik (00:39:08):

customs advantages to members and it's unclear you know it has been unclear to me

Hovik (00:39:14):

how uh trip would function within uh you know going directly through the eaeu yeah

Dziunik (00:39:22):

you cannot exempt one part of the country from

Dziunik (00:39:26):

the overall legislative framework that you are a member and you have committed to.

Hovik (00:39:34):

Yeah. So anyway,

Hovik (00:39:35):

as you mentioned, Pashinyan pushed back saying that TRIP is a bilateral agreement between Armenia and

Hovik (00:39:41):

the United States and that any participation by third countries would be strictly

Hovik (00:39:47):

discussed in that bilateral format.

Hovik (00:39:50):

To me, that sounded like, you know, F off Russia, you know.

Hovik (00:39:53):

But at the same time,

Hovik (00:39:55):

Pashinyan said,

Hovik (00:39:57):

like you mentioned,

Hovik (00:39:58):

Pashinyan said,

Hovik (00:39:59):

it would be best if Russia would reconstruct these missing parts of the railroad.

Hovik (00:40:04):

So I think that

Hovik (00:40:07):

you know, from time to time we hear these issues rekindle and we are reminded that there are

Hovik (00:40:14):

interests, powerful interests at play here.

Hovik (00:40:16):

How would you assess the sudden upgrade of at least Russian rhetoric in Armenian

Hovik (00:40:23):

transport and communications to date?

Hovik (00:40:27):

What is your impression?

Dziunik (00:40:29):

Well, I don't think there has been a change.

Dziunik (00:40:32):

I think there is just a persistence

Dziunik (00:40:35):

not to allow anything that will endanger the communication through Armenia of the

Dziunik (00:40:44):

Eurasian Economic Union,

Dziunik (00:40:47):

from Russia to Iran,

Dziunik (00:40:48):

from north to south,

Dziunik (00:40:51):

be put in place,

Dziunik (00:40:52):

because that will be devastating for both countries and for the union as a whole.

Dziunik (00:41:00):

And I'm not even mentioning Armenia.

Dziunik (00:41:02):

Armenia has benefited from this union tremendously.

Dziunik (00:41:06):

and it will just go back into the dark ages if something happens to this membership.

Dziunik (00:41:14):

The thing is that this was the main intent in the beginning when this person was

Dziunik (00:41:21):

brought to power in Armenia to push Russia out of the region and put the whole

Dziunik (00:41:26):

region under the Western control,

Dziunik (00:41:28):

having the East-West communication fully under the control of the Western

Dziunik (00:41:35):

companies.

Dziunik (00:41:36):

so that they could get hold of the resources coming from Central Asia to Europe,

Dziunik (00:41:45):

and also cut the possible connection from China,

Dziunik (00:41:50):

or at least put this connection under the full control of the Western companies.

Dziunik (00:41:55):

So this is something that has been...

Dziunik (00:41:59):

in the beginning, and they are currently trying to fulfill through TRIP.

Dziunik (00:42:04):

The understanding that the Armenian side is manipulating the Russian and the

Dziunik (00:42:11):

Iranian leadership,

Dziunik (00:42:13):

simply gaining time for the implementation of this project,

Dziunik (00:42:20):

is coming to many of the leaders in these countries.

Dziunik (00:42:28):

And now they are openly speaking about that.

Dziunik (00:42:31):

If last year,

Dziunik (00:42:33):

sorry, if several months ago when this was signed,

Dziunik (00:42:36):

they wanted to believe that this would really been some kind of a communication and

Dziunik (00:42:42):

not a corridor the way we understand it.

Dziunik (00:42:46):

Now they are coming to the understanding that they have been lied to and whatever

Dziunik (00:42:52):

is being prepared

Dziunik (00:42:55):

with all these very secretive arrangements that is not being pronounced in the

Dziunik (00:43:01):

public is not to the benefit or at least is not going to risk the security and the

Dziunik (00:43:08):

connection from north to south.

Dziunik (00:43:12):

And it has more military political purposes rather than trade and economic purposes.

Dziunik (00:43:21):

So as I mentioned,

Dziunik (00:43:24):

Pashinyan is giving Putin something to say that if you want to get and stay engaged

Dziunik (00:43:31):

in the Armenian communication lines,

Dziunik (00:43:34):

then just simply repair and this missing parts of our railway system.

Dziunik (00:43:41):

But you're not going to see the southern part because that's what he has been

Dziunik (00:43:46):

brought to power for.

Dziunik (00:43:49):

As for the November 9th,

Dziunik (00:43:53):

statement,

Dziunik (00:43:55):

the first part of it had a totally different intention,

Dziunik (00:43:59):

and it was stating that all communication lines should be opened.

Dziunik (00:44:04):

And after that,

Dziunik (00:44:05):

there will be something connecting Azerbaijan to Nakhijevan under the border control

Dziunik (00:44:12):

of the Russian Federation.

Dziunik (00:44:16):

Not the full control of the communication, but under the border control, the same way we have

Dziunik (00:44:22):

We have had the border control units,

Dziunik (00:44:26):

for example,

Dziunik (00:44:27):

in Zvartnots Airport that Pashinyan removed last year or in different border control

Dziunik (00:44:35):

sectors.

Dziunik (00:44:36):

So this is something that they could not have allowed because it would have meant

Dziunik (00:44:41):

increasing Russian influence or at least making their presence more stable.

Dziunik (00:44:47):

But the purpose was to remove them from the region.

Dziunik (00:44:50):

So I hope that their intention and the project will not move very fast,

Dziunik (00:44:59):

though the British especially are pushing for it very eagerly.

Dziunik (00:45:06):

But let's wait and see.

Dziunik (00:45:08):

The main development will be coming in the coming two, three months.

Asbed (00:45:14):

Ambassador, when you say that they're trying to delay and they're trying to gain time,

Asbed (00:45:19):

what are they waiting for?

Asbed (00:45:21):

What are the main events in 2026 that would keep them delaying like this?

Asbed (00:45:27):

Is it the elections?

Asbed (00:45:28):

Is it the end of the railroad agreement with Russia?

Dziunik (00:45:34):

All elements are in place.

Dziunik (00:45:38):

They are not working transparently in bringing to public the information about the

Dziunik (00:45:46):

real arrangement that the trip will be operating on,

Dziunik (00:45:51):

because that will be hurting Pashinyan's position in the elections.

Dziunik (00:45:55):

Also,

Dziunik (00:45:56):

it will increase the resistance coming from Russia and Iran with the unexpectable

Dziunik (00:46:02):

consequences.

Dziunik (00:46:03):

So this is all working together as one package.

Dziunik (00:46:07):

The Western side wants it to move quickly.

Dziunik (00:46:11):

And I think that's why they are still thinking of extraordinary elections that

Dziunik (00:46:17):

would gain some time for them and ensure that if Pashilyan is re-elected,

Dziunik (00:46:22):

then their positions are safe.

Dziunik (00:46:24):

And whatever comes out, he can justify by the public vote.

Dziunik (00:46:30):

And no matter that the public might give vote to a totally different agenda than he

Dziunik (00:46:36):

fulfills,

Dziunik (00:46:37):

as we have seen from the 2021 elections.

Dziunik (00:46:41):

So I think that's why I'm saying his actions against the church,

Dziunik (00:46:45):

his actions putting all the possible leaders of public resistance or opposition

Dziunik (00:46:55):

into jails or having criminal cases instigated against them is simply to neutralize

Dziunik (00:47:02):

the opposition field and have some kind of a public feeling of hopelessness that

Dziunik (00:47:11):

would not allow the public to go to the polling stations.

Dziunik (00:47:16):

And that will increase his chances also for being reelected.

Dziunik (00:47:20):

All this is playing together.

Dziunik (00:47:21):

There are too many elements, but they are all worked out together.

Asbed (00:47:25):

Superpower interests are a big deal.

Asbed (00:47:27):

Do you have any confidence that Pashinyan's government has the wits to balance them all?

Dziunik (00:47:32):

No, he's just following the instructions he's getting from the Western mentors.

Dziunik (00:47:40):

Of course, he's trying to safeguard his own body physically.

Dziunik (00:47:45):

But he's mainly following the instructions he's getting from his mentors.

Asbed (00:47:50):

Okay.

Asbed (00:47:51):

Well, let's wrap up the topics then.

Asbed (00:47:54):

I do want to ask each of you if you have any thoughts you would like to share with

Asbed (00:47:59):

our listeners.

Asbed (00:48:00):

Hovig, what's on your mind?

Hovik (00:48:02):

Just a minor comment.

Hovik (00:48:05):

Just yesterday, 168 AM published on their website,

Hovik (00:48:10):

uh youtube channel an interview with father Serob Azarian I believe that's the

Hovik (00:48:16):

name um uh i think he had one time he lives in the territory in the western diocese

Hovik (00:48:24):

uh region he's in Las Vegas i think yeah and he had an interesting a few

Hovik (00:48:29):

interesting comments to say about Archbishop Hovnan Derderian

Hovik (00:48:35):

And the main comment that he made was the archbishop must explain his stance publicly.

Hovik (00:48:43):

And to me,

Hovik (00:48:44):

that silence from the archbishop has been deafening because his name or his

Hovik (00:48:50):

signature has been purported to be on the list of those 10 bishops and archbishops

Hovik (00:48:56):

who have demanded the Catholicos' resignation.

Hovik (00:48:59):

I don't think he has...

Hovik (00:49:01):

After that he has publicly said anything

Hovik (00:49:05):

I mean, he has tens of thousands,

Hovik (00:49:07):

if not hundreds of thousands of Armenians as part of his flock,

Hovik (00:49:11):

and it's just astounding to me why no one has,

Hovik (00:49:20):

with respect,

Hovik (00:49:21):

asked the Archbishop to further explain his stance and his motivations for signing

Hovik (00:49:28):

that statement,

Hovik (00:49:29):

or if he didn't,

Hovik (00:49:30):

then a denial of that.

Hovik (00:49:32):

So Archbishop, Your Holiness, with respect, I want to ask you, please explain yourself.

Hovik (00:49:42):

And we would love to have,

Hovik (00:49:45):

of course, Archbishop on our podcast,

Hovik (00:49:47):

but in the absence of that,

Hovik (00:49:51):

I'm sure one way or another,

Hovik (00:49:54):

My request will be translated to the Archbishop,

Hovik (00:49:59):

if not directly,

Hovik (00:50:00):

if he's not watching directly.

Hovik (00:50:01):

But in any case,

Hovik (00:50:02):

I would hope that other Armenians who attend service,

Hovik (00:50:07):

who see or interact with the Archbishop can pose that question to him directly as

Hovik (00:50:11):

well.

Asbed (00:50:12):

Okay,

Asbed (00:50:13):

we'll put the link to that YouTube video in the show notes,

Asbed (00:50:17):

podcasts.groong.org/episode-number.

Asbed (00:50:20):

Ambassador, do you have any thoughts you would like to share with our listeners?

Dziunik (00:50:23):

Last Sunday, when I saw these people climbing up the doors of St.

Dziunik (00:50:31):

H. Madsen, it was very painful for me.

Dziunik (00:50:34):

It was like a shot into my heart,

Dziunik (00:50:36):

and it reminded me of a similar situation when,

Dziunik (00:50:42):

for the first time ever in 2016,

Dziunik (00:50:45):

a group organized by some people...

Dziunik (00:50:53):

trying to show support to the actions of Sasna Dzrer.

Dziunik (00:50:59):

And they were climbing up the door of the embassy, and they left curses and vandalized the door.

Dziunik (00:51:11):

And it was led by somebody called Dej Armen,

Dziunik (00:51:16):

and I'm not surprised to see him in the leading positions currently.

Dziunik (00:51:23):

within those attacking the church.

Dziunik (00:51:27):

So it is like,

Dziunik (00:51:29):

you know,

Dziunik (00:51:30):

both the embassy is a sacred place for your own community people,

Dziunik (00:51:37):

as also it is protected internationally.

Dziunik (00:51:40):

But the church is a spiritual heaven.

Dziunik (00:51:46):

And when you see this kind of a disregard, and this is a very soft word for that,

Dziunik (00:51:51):

towards your own sanctities, it's really painful.

Dziunik (00:51:57):

But then you remember that that's the main purpose,

Dziunik (00:52:02):

to break all red lines,

Dziunik (00:52:04):

be it physical or be it moral or psychological,

Dziunik (00:52:09):

so that they can just break you as a person,

Dziunik (00:52:12):

break you as an individual and break you as an Armenian.

Dziunik (00:52:16):

And that gives you the understanding that you should simply stand

Dziunik (00:52:21):

in support of your values,

Dziunik (00:52:23):

understand them,

Dziunik (00:52:24):

cherish them,

Dziunik (00:52:26):

and also explain to people what is the real purpose of these kind of actions and

Dziunik (00:52:32):

not allow the manipulation to reach its goal.

Dziunik (00:52:37):

So I think this is very painful,

Dziunik (00:52:39):

but I think the understanding comes also from this pain,

Dziunik (00:52:44):

what the real purpose of those actions are.

Asbed (00:52:48):

Ambassador,

Asbed (00:52:49):

as this is our final conversation of 2025,

Asbed (00:52:52):

we wish you a Happy New Year despite all of the bad news we've had in this year.

Asbed (00:52:58):

And a holy Christmas.

Asbed (00:53:01):

Merry Christmas.

Asbed (00:53:03):

May 2026 be better.

Dziunik (00:53:05):

Happy New Year to our listeners too.

Asbed (00:53:08):

Absolutely.

Dziunik (00:53:08):

And I hope 2026 is really, brings a breakthrough towards more really peaceful,

Dziunik (00:53:18):

and valuable here in understanding humanity and the main purpose why we humans are

Dziunik (00:53:29):

brought to this world,

Dziunik (00:53:30):

actually.

Asbed (00:53:32):

Thank you.

Asbed (00:53:33):

Talk to you soon.

Hovik (00:53:35):

Yeah, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.

Hovik (00:53:37):

Happy holidays to everyone.

Hovik (00:53:39):

And especially our listeners as well who are celebrating maybe Christmas right now

Hovik (00:53:43):

because we're recording this on Christmas,

Hovik (00:53:46):

U.S. Christmas Eve.

Hovik (00:53:47):

So...

Asbed (00:53:48):

For you. For me, it's the 23rd still.

Dziunik (00:53:52):

Peace and happiness to all.

Asbed (00:53:54):

Yes.

Asbed (00:53:56):

That was our Week in Review.

Asbed (00:53:59):

We recorded it on December 23rd for me here in Pacific time zone and December 24th

Asbed (00:54:05):

for Hovik in Yerevan time zone.

Hovik (00:54:08):

Well, it's only a few hours away from Christmas Eve for you anyway.

Hovik (00:54:12):

So once again, Merry Christmas to all those who celebrate at this time.

Asbed (00:54:20):

Yes.

Hovik (00:54:20):

And thanks.

Hovik (00:54:22):

This was an interesting show.

Asbed (00:54:24):

So we've been talking with Ms.

Asbed (00:54:25):

Dziunik Aghajanian,

Asbed (00:54:27):

who has served Armenia through the ranks of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs,

Asbed (00:54:31):

and most recently as a diplomat,

Asbed (00:54:33):

as Armenia's ambassador to such countries as the Netherlands,

Asbed (00:54:36):

Malaysia,

Asbed (00:54:37):

Indonesia.

Asbed (00:54:38):

She received her education at Yerevan State University,

Asbed (00:54:41):

Columbia University in New York,

Asbed (00:54:43):

and Uppsala University in Sweden.

Asbed (00:54:46):

For more information on everybody,

Asbed (00:54:47):

you can check podcasts.groong.org/episode-number,

Asbed (00:54:51):

click on the people,

Asbed (00:54:53):

you'll find that.

Hovik (00:54:54):

And don't forget to support us, folks, whether it's by liking, commenting, sharing.

Hovik (00:54:59):

And by all means, if you haven't subscribed to us yet, then what are you waiting for?

Hovik (00:55:04):

Please do that.

Asbed (00:55:05):

Don't wait for 2026.

Asbed (00:55:06):

Do it now.

Hovik (00:55:09):

Do it now.

Hovik (00:55:11):

And maybe even financially,

Hovik (00:55:14):

if you're, you know,

Hovik (00:55:15):

as the year comes to an end and you're tallying your losses and your gains,

Hovik (00:55:21):

if your gains are a little more than what you had expected,

Hovik (00:55:24):

then send some our way.

Hovik (00:55:26):

Why not?

Hovik (00:55:27):

Podcasts.groong.org/donate.

Hovik (00:55:31):

And we will be very appreciative.

Hovik (00:55:32):

I think...

Hovik (00:55:34):

well, it goes to a great cause and it helps us increase our reach.

Hovik (00:55:38):

So if you support that, then help us out as well.

Hovik (00:55:42):

Yeah.

Asbed (00:55:43):

We can say Merry Christmas,

Asbed (00:55:44):

but we have one more show planned at this moment in the books with,

Asbed (00:55:49):

I think we are going to talk with Benyamin Poghosyan to do our traditional year end

Asbed (00:55:54):

review and predictions for 2026 in a few days.

Asbed (00:55:57):

So we'll bid everybody...

Hovik (00:56:03):

This is Merry American Christmas.

Hovik (00:56:06):

And then the Armenian Christmas, for those who are not aware, is on January 6th.

Hovik (00:56:10):

So obviously, but many Armenians in the United States celebrate both.

Hovik (00:56:16):

Why not?

Asbed (00:56:17):

The more, the merrier.

Asbed (00:56:19):

So we will bid everybody a Happy New Year in our next show.

Asbed (00:56:23):

Take care, everyone.

Head Shot

Asbed Bedrossian

Co-host
Head Shot

Hovik Manucharyan

Co-host
Head Shot

Dziunik Aghajanyan

Guest

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